Pronounce Nikon

cooltouch · Mar 29, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Japanese is an open syllabic language. All syllables end in a vowel. One exception is "N".

Ni Ko N represents 3 Japanese kana characters but IDK how many Kanji characters.
PE

The answer to this is a rather intriguing, according to what I've found. The original entity was Nippon Kōgaku Kōgyō Kabushikigaisha (日本光学工業株式会社 "Japan Optical Industries Co., Ltd."). But in 1988, the company was renamed to Nikon Corporation, using the Roman alphabet and English spelling (for Corporation, at least). That's the answer, near as I can figure. In other words, the name of the company is not represented with the Chinese style characters. So my guess would be that if you were to see a Nikon sign in Japanese, it would be spelled either "Nikon" or "Nikon Corporation," or it would be spelled in katakana, the syllabary used for foreign words and or emphasis the way we use italics. So it would be ニコン (if you have the Japanese character set installed. I do, so I don't know what that looks like if you don't.).

Theo Sulphate · Mar 29, 2017

John Galt said:
. . JR (Japan Radio) and Futaba . . . gringos pronounce the latter as Foo-tah-ba, purists (God bless their black little hearts) made real PIAs of themselves insisting it was pronounced FUH-to-bah . . .

Just last year I learned (not through personal experience) that the southern U.S. phrase "bless your heart" is not exactly a term of endearment...

cooltouch · Mar 29, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
I still don't know the accepted (Japanese) pronunciation of Hiroshima and Fukushima. I've heard that the 'u' in Japanese is often very short and almost nonexistent - which is why they tend to insert that vowel as a pronunciation aid in foreign loan-words with consonant clusters that are unfamiliar to them.

Yes, but not just /u/, but /i/ also. Thus Hiroshima is spelled with the first syllable being somewhat quiet, with a slightly elevated pitch to the /ro/ syllable and the /shi/ syllable is actually pronounced /shsh/. So /h-ro-sh-ma/ Fukushima -- it's hard expressing this on a Roman alphabet keyboard -- is more like /f-ku-sh-ma/. The /u/ in /ku/ is pronounced, but not emphasized. Also, it bears repeating that the /u/ in Japanese isn't really the /u/ sound but the high back unrounded vowel. In Linguistics, it is represented by this symbol: /ɯ/

Theo Sulphate · Mar 30, 2017

cooltouch said:
...So /h-ro-sh-ma/ Fukushima -- it's hard expressing this on a Roman alphabet keyboard -- is more like /f-ku-sh-ma/. The /u/ in /ku/ is pronounced, but not emphasized. Also, it bears repeating that the /u/ in Japanese isn't really the /u/ sound but the high back unrounded vowel.

Okay, cool...

Back when the earthquake and nuclear accident happened, one discussion forum had people trying to determine where to put the stress on Fukushima. Someone (Japanese?) said that syllable stress really doesn't apply in the same manner as in Western languages. Since I've not heard a Japanese speaker pronounce the name, I'm curious whether all syllables are stressed equally or is there some other distinction being made that we Westerners are unfamiliar with.

MattKing · Mar 30, 2017

For those who think the ideas in this thread are silly or a waste of time...
One of the things I really like about APUG is how international it is. And one of the things that really impresses me here is the amazing facility that many of those whose first language is not English have with the only language that I have any facility with.
So discussions about pronunciations around the world are at a minimum entertaining, and possibly very helpful.
As a mostly irrelevant aside, I was on the phone with a Customer Service representative yesterday who was clearly based in Quebec. It was quite interesting to hear him refer, in a strong French accent, to everything being "okey-dokey".

blockend · Mar 30, 2017

Call centre and fast food outlet workers blur their statements to incomprehensibility through over use. There was a fashion for outsourcing computer support to India, and it was clear the people had been put on the phone with insufficient training. To an English ear the languages of the subcontinent are both extremely fast and without apparent emphasis. When the same is applied in translation it becomes impossible to understand. More than once I've had to ask the speaker to break down the sentence into individual words because even with multiple repetition I don't understand a word. This is embarrassing for both parties.

fstop · Mar 30, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
Just last year I learned (not through personal experience) that the southern U.S. phrase "bless your heart" is not exactly a term of endearment...

its more like "go fornicate yourself"

RalphLambrecht · Mar 30, 2017

f8&bthere said:
"Hi, my name is Johanna. I am an assistant marketing manager at Nye-con [USA]..."

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-an...tting-started-with-your-nikon-d3300-dslr.html

a Nikon marketing manager lists herself as a MF shooter; wow; that's telling

mooseontheloose · Mar 30, 2017

cooltouch said:
So my guess would be that if you were to see a Nikon sign in Japanese, it would be spelled either "Nikon" or "Nikon Corporation," or it would be spelled in katakana, the syllabary used for foreign words and or emphasis the way we use italics. So it would be ニコン (if you have the Japanese character set installed. I do, so I don't know what that looks like if you don't.).

It's both - Nikon uses the roman alphabet (romanji) in all it's branding, so Nikon is Nikon. But when buying or reading about the company, you usually find the katakana ニコン.

cooltouch said:
Yes, but not just /u/, but /i/ also. Thus Hiroshima is spelled with the first syllable being somewhat quiet, with a slightly elevated pitch to the /ro/ syllable and the /shi/ syllable is actually pronounced /shsh/. So /h-ro-sh-ma/ Fukushima -- it's hard expressing this on a Roman alphabet keyboard -- is more like /f-ku-sh-ma/. The /u/ in /ku/ is pronounced, but not emphasized. Also, it bears repeating that the /u/ in Japanese isn't really the /u/ sound but the high back unrounded vowel. In Linguistics, it is represented by this symbol: /ɯ/

The bigger issue for Fukushima is the "fu" sound, particularly because there really is not "F" in Japanese. The "F" sound, in conjunction with "u" is a combination of h/wh/f (your teeth definitely don't touch your bottom lip as when saying "F" in English). It's a very weak sound, you might hear it as 'ukushima. Places like Fukushima, Fukuoka, names like Fumina or Fuka, words like futon or futatsu all follow this rule. If you look at a Japanese syllabary, you'll see Ha, Hi, Fu, He, Ho (はひふへほ). As a teacher, I often see students make mistakes with H/F sounds, often replacing the F with H -- they are writing the way they speak, not what they were taught is correct (f/h misspellings are probably only second to l/r misspellings). Similarly, I used to do a hard "F" sound when saying these words, but now I try harder to imitate that weak "fu/hu/whu" sound that most Westerners have a problem with when speaking Japanese.

Theo Sulphate said:
Okay, cool...
Back when the earthquake and nuclear accident happened, one discussion forum had people trying to determine where to put the stress on Fukushima. Someone (Japanese?) said that syllable stress really doesn't apply in the same manner as in Western languages. Since I've not heard a Japanese speaker pronounce the name, I'm curious whether all syllables are stressed equally or is there some other distinction being made that we Westerners are unfamiliar with.

You can hear it on this video.

cooltouch · Mar 30, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
Okay, cool...

Back when the earthquake and nuclear accident happened, one discussion forum had people trying to determine where to put the stress on Fukushima. Someone (Japanese?) said that syllable stress really doesn't apply in the same manner as in Western languages. Since I've not heard a Japanese speaker pronounce the name, I'm curious whether all syllables are stressed equally or is there some other distinction being made that we Westerners are unfamiliar with.

This is correct. Japanese does not have syllabic stress the way we have it in English. Sometimes emphasis occurs by voicing one syllable at a higher pitch than the others. Like Hiroshima -- /h-RO-sh-ma/ -- that's the way I hear native Japanese speakers pronounce it. It isn't a stress sort of emphasis, but a pitch emphasis. But Japanese doesn't have tones, like Chinese and Vietnamese, for example. Fukushima /f-KU-sh-ma/ has some of this pitch emphasis also, but less. I suspect it is because the second syllable has the high back unrounded vowel, which is often not voiced.

When I listen to rapid conversational Japanese speech, I'll note that stress is absent, but what I hear is a wave of pitch modulations that occurs over the expanse of an entire sentence. Most often the pitch will start off low, then it will quickly crescendo and then it will taper downward slowly toward the end of the sentence. I recall, when I was in Japan, I booked a tour on a tour bus -- intended for Japanese tourists -- and the tour bus lady who was giving a rolling monolog of the sights had this rapid speech pattern where this pitch modulation was very evident. My understanding of the language was minimal back then, so because I caught only the occasional word, I was more aware of this pitch modulation to the sentence structure, largely because I couldn't understand what was being said!

mooseontheloose said:
It's both - Nikon uses the roman alphabet (romanji) in all it's branding, so Nikon is Nikon. But when buying or reading about the company, you usually find the katakana ニコン.

The bigger issue for Fukushima is the "fu" sound, particularly because there really is not "F" in Japanese. The "F" sound, in conjunction with "u" is a combination of h/wh/f (your teeth definitely don't touch your bottom lip as when saying "F" in English). It's a very weak sound, you might hear it as 'ukushima. Places like Fukushima, Fukuoka, names like Fumina or Fuka, words like futon or futatsu all follow this rule. If you look at a Japanese syllabary, you'll see Ha, Hi, Fu, He, Ho (はひふへほ). As a teacher, I often see students make mistakes with H/F sounds, often replacing the F with H -- they are writing the way they speak, not what they were taught is correct (f/h misspellings are probably only second to l/r misspellings). Similarly, I used to do a hard "F" sound when saying these words, but now I try harder to imitate that weak "fu/hu/whu" sound that most Westerners have a problem with when speaking Japanese.

This is an excellent point and one I forgot to mention. The Japanese F, which really isn't an F is produced by pursing the lips until just a small opening exists -- approximately the size opening your mouth would have if you were drawing on a straw. Then a puff of air is blown through the pursed lips. This results in an "airy" fricative, which has more air friction than an H, but much less than an F beceause the lower teeth are not touching the upper lip. There is an analog to this in some Spanish dialects, except it is voiced. The "V" in the word "vaca" 'cow' is pronounced without the teeth touching the lip.

The F/H confusion reminds me of a situation I was involved in when I was in Japan. I was at a small cafe for lunch and the waitress asked me, in English, if I would like a fork (I was using chop sticks). At first I didn't understand her. It sounded like she was asking me "Would you like a hoke?" I was thinking, what on Earth is a hoke? And then I remembered the Japanese F, and it all became clear.

blockend · Mar 30, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
Just last year I learned (not through personal experience) that the southern U.S. phrase "bless your heart" is not exactly a term of endearment...

Depending on where you are in the UK, the word "mate" has varying connotations, none of which mean to copulate. It's a colloquial term of mild endearment (like dear, love, etc) but in Scotland an NE England can be deeply dismissive, a kind of get-out-of-my-face remark. Most curious is the general term "my lover" in the south west of England, said in the best girl pirate accent!

Alan Gales · Mar 30, 2017

RalphLambrecht said:
a Nikon marketing manager lists herself as a MF shooter; wow; that's telling

Ralph, when I was a kid I worked part time at a Venture store. Venture was similar to Target today. I worked in the Cameras and Sporting Goods department where we sold Canon, Minolta, Nikon, Olympus and Pentax cameras. I would explain the differences between the models and when I was done often the customer would ask, "So which one do you own?". I would reply, "Contax".

CMoore · Mar 30, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
My passion for languages and linguistics far exceeds that for photography - and I speak, read, and write four languages besides English (my first job was as a Russian translator - despite my degree in engineering) .

Noam Chomsky is an outstanding, brilliant linguist who would never have concocted the stupid ghoti thing. It doesn't work for the many reasons I gave in my prior posting.

Look it up in Wikipedia to see its bastard origins over 100 years ago by fools trying to be a smartass.

Keeping in mind i did not go to school.......I am asking a s a person who likes Noam, and have a general interest in education.
I suppose a "Linguist" is a rather broad description.....like saying somebody is an "Engineer" (perhaps.?)
In the 1950's (or was it 1960's) what exactly would a Linguist be hired to teach at M.I.T. .?
Lots of different stuff...language as a history of culture...as it applies to international economics...as it plays to Political Science.?
What did he (initially) do there.?
Thank You

Theo Sulphate · Mar 30, 2017

CMoore said:
...
What did he (initially) do there.?
Thank You

Wikipedia and other sites have a reasonably good overview of his work. I began to understand him better through the linguist Steven Pinker - whose books are so well written for the average person (non-linguist).

The major concept I embrace is that the human brain itself contains an innate framework for language constructs. Pinker explains this well.

Theo Sulphate · Mar 30, 2017

mooseontheloose said:
...
You can hear it on this video.

Wow - that initial sound was totally unexpected. Thank you.

Best APUG thread ever!

Photo Engineer · Mar 30, 2017

However, the city "Fussa" comes out more "Hussa" to my ears.

PE

Skiver101 · Mar 30, 2017

How do you pronounce Nikon ?

cooltouch · Mar 30, 2017

Theo Sulphate said:
Wikipedia and other sites have a reasonably good overview of his work. I began to understand him better through the linguist Steven Pinker - whose books are so well written for the average person (non-linguist).

The major concept I embrace is that the human brain itself contains an innate framework for language constructs. Pinker explains this well.

Pinker is excellent. I actually had a brief email exchange with him back in about 1995 or 1996, I guess it was. The subject? Cameras and lenses! Anyway, I highly recommend his 1994 book, The Language Instinct, which gets into the meat of what Chomsky first proposed. Incidentally, Chomsky is best known as a syntactician, one of the many Linguistics sub-fields.

My Master's thesis was on a subject that was very much in line with Pinker's book. It was on the subject of human evolution and the biological evolution of language. Most people don't realize that language is indeed an inherited biological trait. My thesis added a twist to this, which I believe to be demonstrably true.

cooltouch · Mar 30, 2017

Skiver101 said:
How do you pronounce Nikon ?

Wasn't it also Monty Python who did a take-off on the pronunciation of 'knight'? They were insisting it be pronounced k-ni-git (with "short" i's and the /k/ and /g/ both pronounced.)

Photo Engineer · Mar 30, 2017

Emphasize "GIT" for this one.

PE

Theo Sulphate · Mar 30, 2017

cooltouch said:
Wasn't it also Monty Python who did a take-off on the pronunciation of 'knight'? They were insisting it be pronounced k-ni-git (with "short" i's and the /k/ and /g/ both pronounced.)

Monty Python skits frequently had fun with language (a fictitious TV programme interviewed people "who spoke only the beginnings of words" along with those who spoke only the ends, and those who spoke only the middle - then they had those people all speak at the same time - very entertaining). Seinfeld had fun with language as well ("she's a high talker"). Actually, I think Monty Python did that first and offered a "translator" (who mistranslated...).

If you are fond of, as I am, center embedding, then you may enjoy this from the interwebs:

"New speech disorder linguists contracted discovered!

An apparently new speech disorder a linguistics department our correspondent visited was affected by has appeared. Those affected our correspondent a local grad student called could hardly understand apparently still speak fluently. The cause experts the LSA sent investigate remains elusive. Frighteningly, linguists linguists linguists sent examined are highly contagious. Physicians neurologists psychologists other linguists called for help called for help called for help didn’t help either. The disorder experts reporters SpecGram sent consulted investigated apparently is a case of pathological center embedding."

cooltouch · Mar 31, 2017

OMG, that;s tied my head in knots. k-nots. I gave up trying to process that paragraph about halfway through.

anfenglin · Mar 31, 2017

cooltouch said:
Wasn't it also Monty Python who did a take-off on the pronunciation of 'knight'? They were insisting it be pronounced k-ni-git (with "short" i's and the /k/ and /g/ both pronounced.)

"Ah, it's monsieur Arthur king and his K-NiGGts!"

Love love love Monty Python, also Blackadder and all sorts of other British comedy. The original Whose line was also funny as hell.
The Brits really know how to make comedy, in a dry, well British way, with word plays, clever puns and not just plain in-your-face dirtyness. Is that a word? Who cares.
One of my absolute favourites who combines all those things and adds his freaky body and mime work is mister Rowan Atkinson. Not paticularly fond of his Mr. Bean but as Blackadder and Raymond Fowler of Gasforth Police Force (The Thin Blue Line) he is so funny!

Btw, having studied Chinese for a few years, seeing Nikon written in Kanji is just weird. Kanji are basically the Chinese Hanzi characters, with a few changes and adaptations over the decades thrown in.
The meaning is pretty much the same but reading the characters in Chinese in my head makes my brain tickle. Always happens to me when I read Kanji. "Ah, I know this one.....hang on..oh, its Japanese. Oh well.."

kivis · May 15, 2017

filmconquistador said:
"nay-khon" english speakers,
"Nee-khon" japanese and spanish speakers
"Nee-kang" chinese speakers

Oh Contraire. Americans say nighkon and the English (Aussies, too) say kneekon.

emacs · May 15, 2017

This thread has been a really interesting read, linguistics is such a neat science. Personally, I generally pronounce it Nih-con and Nih-core, but if I'm talking with someone who pronounces it differently I'll copy their pronunciation. I know I'm "wrong" if I'm meant to use the Japanese pronunciation, but unless you pronounce Olympus as Orimpasu I don't think you're in a place to judge

Pronounce Nikon

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency