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Helen B · Jul 14, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Roger, in digital, the blue is blue and IR sensitive, the green is green and IR sensitive and the red is red + IR. In film, the blue is blue + green, the green is blue + red, and the red is IR.

I'm not sure how you would accomplish this feat in digital then, due to the sensitivity SHIFT in analog. Oh, you might approach it in PS, but nothing like in film. It would take massive manipulation in PS to do it which defeats the purpose of just clicking a shutter with analog.

PE

PE,

Taking Roger's post one step further:

With false-colour film you normally use a yellow filter to restrict the blue+IR sensitive layer (which ends up as a red image) to just IR (or very near IR to be more precise). If you did the same with digital, then you would have IR, green+IR and red+IR. It is a trivial matter to turn that into IR, green and red channels, and you can assign any colour you wish to any channel - such as red for the IR channel, blue for the green channel and green for the red channel (to mimic EIR's false colours). This is not 'massive manipulation' by any means. Furthermore, you could use other filters or combinations of filters to produce any combination of three channels from five bands (very near UV, blue, green, red and very near IR).

For those who don't already know, EIR has the following false colour effect:

Blue + IR sensitive layer, forming a red image;
Blue + green sensitive layer, forming a blue image;
Blue + red sensitive layer, forming a green image.

Best,
Helen

Photo Engineer · Jul 14, 2007

Helen;

I would put it this way.

Remember that Blue is filtered out in the exposure

Film:

Blue + IR sensitive layer forms a cyan image of the IR light
Blue + green sensitive layer forms a yellow image of blue light
Blue + red sensitive layer forms a magenta image of red light

Digital:

Blue + IR sensitive layer forms a yellow image of IR light
Blue + green sensitive layer forms a magenta image of IR light + green light
Blue + red sensitive layer forms a cyan image of IR light + red light

In the analog case then, the layers have only one sensitivity, but with digital two layers have IR + color sensitivity. Therefore in the analog film each layer is limited to 'seeing' one color but in digital the sensors can see 2 colors.

That is the problem. And it is not trivial to separate. Although you can get some interesting looking pictures.

PE

Helen B · Jul 18, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Helen;

I would put it this way.

Remember that Blue is filtered out in the exposure

Film:

Blue + IR sensitive layer forms a cyan image of the IR light
Blue + green sensitive layer forms a yellow image of blue light
Blue + red sensitive layer forms a magenta image of red light

Digital:

Blue + IR sensitive layer forms a yellow image of IR light
Blue + green sensitive layer forms a magenta image of IR light + green light
Blue + red sensitive layer forms a cyan image of IR light + red light

...

PE,

I think that you have a few things mixed up there in the digital part, and a typo in the film part*, but as this is APUG the best thing to do is probably to leave the digital discussion here (though I didn't start it) and let the readers decide who they want to believe.

Best,
Helen

*"Blue + green sensitive layer forms a yellow image of blue light" should be "Blue + green sensitive layer forms a yellow image of green light". The transposition of cyan/red; yellow/blue; and magenta/green in our descriptions are just different ways of describing the same thing, of course - as it is a reversal film I gave the primary-primary connection. We are, therefore, in full agreement about the way EIR interprets colours and IR.

Photo Engineer · Jul 18, 2007

Helen, thanks for catching my error in the analog part. Your correction is 'correct' for analog.

I did wish to describe analog in terms of the dye formed. I then described the digital in the same terms even though it does not form dye. I got the information for digital from the web sites devoted to this topic and some practical experiments.

By using a very heavy neutral density over the lens of a digital camera, and then exposing, you can equalize the IR speed to the visible speed of the sensors thereby getting usable pictures as I described with color superimposed on the IR image.

I have done quite a bit of this, but will not post it due to the fact that it is a digital work. I was trying to find a substitute for Infra Red color and could not, to my satisfaction, do this.

PE

Silverhead · Jul 18, 2007

ajuk said:
The thing with colour infrared film is there is no digital equivalent is there?

There is (NIK software), but it's not a very convincing imitation, AFAIC...as is usually the case with digital versions of film styles.

Silverhead · Jul 20, 2007

PE, got a question for ya: in lieu of Kodak's pulling of EIR (and not giving out precise word on exactly when that would happen, thank you soooooooo much Big Yellow!), I've been snapping up whatever rolls I can find locally, as Freestyle, Adorama, B&H, etc. are all out. I plan to send these rolls straight into the freezer. My question is, given EIR's reduced stability when compared with standard chrome film, will that inherent instability carry on into the freezer? I imagine the freezer would at least slow down the breaking down of the film, but I'm wondering to what degree.

Photo Engineer · Jul 20, 2007

I would follow the advice of others and store it in tight plastic bags in the freezer to protect from heat and moisture both.

This film is more sensitive to heat so even though you cool it down, it is still going to move faster into oblivion than any other film at the same temperature.

To most films, heat is akin to a continuation of the chemical sensitization step but slowed by incorporated retardants. To infra red films, heat is like light as well and so can cause fog directly. Heat to these films, even the little found in a freezer, is like a constant dim light seeping through the container causing fog.

There is little you can do unless you cool it to dry ice temperatures. There you will finally slow the deterioration down to about what other films experience in a freezer, but you increase the chance of damage from moisture unless it is very well sealed in a dry atmosphere.

PE

tjaded · Jul 23, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
I would follow the advice of others and store it in tight plastic bags in the freezer to protect from heat and moisture both.

This film is more sensitive to heat so even though you cool it down, it is still going to move faster into oblivion than any other film at the same temperature.

To most films, heat is akin to a continuation of the chemical sensitization step but slowed by incorporated retardants. To infra red films, heat is like light as well and so can cause fog directly. Heat to these films, even the little found in a freezer, is like a constant dim light seeping through the container causing fog.

There is little you can do unless you cool it to dry ice temperatures. There you will finally slow the deterioration down to about what other films experience in a freezer, but you increase the chance of damage from moisture unless it is very well sealed in a dry atmosphere.

PE

Si I just got my batch of EIR in the mail, all VERY outdated. I am assuming that based on your post I should not hold out much hope. I'll give it a try and see what, if anything, shows up!

Photo Engineer · Jul 23, 2007

Good luck.

PE

tjaded · Jul 23, 2007

Thanks...at least it was cheap! I got 32 rolls (in a batch of 90 rolls of film) for under $30 total. Worth a gamble to me.

Stephen Frizza · Aug 6, 2007

EIR Available

I own a lab in Sydney Australia called The Lighthouse.
I purchased 200 rolls from Kodak when the discontinuance of Kodak EIR colour infra red was announced and have it in deep freeze if anyones in Australia and interested in this product.

~Steve
The Lighthouse

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