Processing problem in Jobo 3010 drum

Jim Cole · Nov 22, 2008

PE,

Yes, the v-shaped defect always occurs at the bottom of the well, away from the solution sump. I modified a reversing Uniroller base to allow me to control the reversing cycle and then quit using the modified reversing capability. I agree now that that change in my proceedure probably contributed to the problem.

Thanks once more,
Jim

Mahler_one · Nov 22, 2008

Jim: Regarding the wetting agent, it is some times very difficult to fully remove the agent from plastic. Indeed, Jobo recommends NOT having the wetting agent come in contact with the plastic on their film reels. Before developing again, scrub the inside of the tank carefully including both sides of the dividers in each slot. Perhaps a non foaming cleanser of some type, or perhaps someone here can recommend a suitable product. Obviously then do some very thorough rinsing, and when you think you are done, rinse some more. I have a funny feeling that the wetting agent is forming a small "seal" on the back of the film ( where the film meets the plastic ), and solutions cannot completely move about these areas on the film. The fact that the artifact "moves" from slot to slot suggests that the wetting agent adheres to various parts of the tank. Use the correct volume of solutions as noted, and let us know what happens after you throughly clean the inside of the tank. The wetting agent can really bind to the plastic-and you cannot "see it"...what a pain.

You have certainly tweaked the interest of all of your friends here....I hope we have helped, and that the problem can be solved.

Ed

Jim Cole · Nov 23, 2008

Ed,

Excellent suggestion and I'll clean he drum before I do my next three batches that I have waiting in line. It's interesting how some threads just draw out the community. I will say again that I am very appreciative of all the help I've received here today. The level of expertise, experience, professionalism and wilingness to help on this forum is simply amazing!

I'll report back probably Monday or Tuesday on how the next 8 sheets come out. Sunday will be a day of fun with my wife.

Jim

Kirk Keyes · Nov 23, 2008

You've got bigger issues than photo-flow in your drum. (I use Photo-Flow in my drum all the time and I have no issues from it.)

I use 1 L of all my processing solutions in my 3010 - why use less? And having a large excess over what the minimum needed is and you are most certainly going to fix your problem.

Mahler_one · Nov 23, 2008

Good points Kirk. However, for one or two sheets, why tax the motor and add all of that volume of solution? Fixing a CPP Jobo motor ( an ultimate night-mare ) most be costly. Moreover, most of the solution is wasted.

Ed

Jim Cole · Nov 23, 2008

Kirk,

Points well taken. I will give up trying to use 240-300ml of fixer and use a larger, reusable volume, but I've never had an issue with a one-shot developer in smaller 300-600ml volumes (I tend to process 1-4 sheets at a time). Until I do, I agree with Kirk that I cannot see wasting all of the excess developer.

Kirk, it is good to know that you have not suffered any ill-effects with using the photo-flo in your jobo drum. Do you get any small white specs on your negs that may appear to be caused by foaming wetting agent. If not then I need to look elsewhere for the cause of that. Perhaps your use of 1000ml of solution for all your processing steps eliminates that as well.

This is a very interesting discussion.

Jim

Mahler_one · Nov 23, 2008

JIm-there is nothing to lose. Wash out the drum. Not a big deal, will take you a few minutes.

Ed

Jim Cole · Nov 23, 2008

Mahler_one said:
JIm-there is nothing to lose. Wash out the drum. Not a big deal, will take you a few minutes.

Will do Ed. No reason not to eliminate variables at this point.

Jim

Mahler_one · Nov 24, 2008

PDF] FilmDrums 3012-3025 - 11:26am - [ Translate this page ]File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Note: Do not pour wetting agents or stabilizer. into the film drum. Use a separate container for ... JOBO Lift or an ATL, the red sealing ring (cog ...
www.jobo

From a Jobo tech bulletin.

Ed

Kirk Keyes · Nov 24, 2008

I use Photo-Flow in my Jobo drum and I never have white flecks on my film.

I wash the film in the drum on the Jobo. I then take the lid off, and I add a few mls of Photo-Flow to 50 mls of water and then pour about 10 ml of the diluted Photo-Flow into each well of the 3010. I fill each well with filtered tap water, and then let the films sit for a couple minutes. I then pull the films from the drum, and give them a really quick rinse with the filtered tap water and hang them to dry.

That appears to go somewhat against the admonition from Jobo in the post above, but I beleive they are advising against using the photo-flow in a drum on a running processor, as you will make a lot of suds and foam and that is counter-productive to film processing and you also want to avoid having it in your fill lines on the Jobo Lift as it will carry-over in to the next processing step.

If your drum is not being filled through the Lift, and it is not rotating, there should be no issues with using Photo-Flow in your drum.

Kirk Keyes · Nov 24, 2008

Jim, also, you mentioned whacking the drum lid on your leg to dry it out earlier. Do you know the baffle/cup on the inside of the drum lid can be removed by twisting? You can then dry out the entire lid and the baffle or cup (which ever design you happen to have) with a towel .

Jim Cole · Nov 24, 2008

Good morning folks,

I have just finished giving my drum a good cleaning. My first order of business is to process some film this morning and use at least 600ml of fixer in the drum to make sure that the white spots are not fixer volume related (like the major defect in the neg from the attached image in the OP evidently was). I will then do my photo-flow in a tray after removing the negs from the drum just to see if I get spot free negs. If everything comes out clean, I may have found my new workflow. I have a feeling that the issue I may be having with Photo-flow in the drum is that I was rotating the drum causing the wetting agent to foam which is why Jobo may recommend against putting the agent in the drum. I may or may not try putting the wetting agent in the non-rotating drum in the future to see what happens.

Kirk, thanks for the reminder that the drum lid disassembles. DOH!

Thanks for everyone's help here,

Jim

Jim Cole · Nov 25, 2008

An update.

I ran two batches of film in the 3010 today for a total of 7 sheets afetr cleaning out the drum and using solution volumes of about 800-900nl for all the chemicals and water washes. Final rinses were done with Photo-Flo in a tray.

The good news is that I avoided the major fixer issue that I reported at the beginning of this thread. The bad news is that I still cannot get rid of the white specks that appear all over the negative, but always seem to concentrate at the top center of the negative closest to the lid in the drum. I was hoping it was caused by the foaming wetting agent, but that theory is out the window since I did the final rince in a tray.

All my solutions are made from liquids so I'm having a hard time guessing what causes the white spots. They vary from small specks to more diffuse round spots. It's curious that they concentrate at the top of the film whereas the fixer issue occurred at the bottom.

I used a very clean drum, clean measuring beakers, and pour working chemicals from the bottles through a funnel with a screen filter into the drum.

Any ideas???

Jim

Kirk Keyes · Nov 25, 2008

Jim Cole said:
It's curious that they concentrate at the top of the film whereas the fixer issue occurred at the bottom.

They are probably unrelated.

Kirk Keyes · Nov 25, 2008

1) DO you have the spots on the film before you put them in the photo-flow?

2) Do you have fine particles in your fixer? Sometimes when fixer goes bad, it gets precipitated sulfur in it and it looks like really fine particles.

3) How much photo-flow are you using? You don't need it to be really foamy. It just needs enough to break the surface tension of the water so the water runs off the film and does not bead up.

Jim Cole · Nov 25, 2008

Kirk,

I have not checked for spots before using the photo-flo. They require a loupe to see and I cannot do that while the film is wet.

The fixer is pretty fresh. I'm working from half gallon I just bought about 6 weeks ago from Freestyle. I was using one shot on the previous batch and yesterday the 850ml I made was fresh again.

Yesterday I used about 1ml of Photo-flo in enough water to fill up a 12x18 tray about an inch from the top. There was no foaming as I added the photo-flo to the tray after the water was added.

These are tiny little specks, small enough to easily clone out with the healing brush in CS3 with a brush size of 20 pixels and the more diffuse spots are about 40-50 pixels wide and very diffuse. This is on a scan of a 4x5 at 2400 dpi.

I am using fresh photo-flo although I kept an older small bottle to use as a working container. Maybe I've got old dried photo-flo in the in the botttle causing the problem when I add fresh from a larger storage bottle?

Thanks for your continued help in my quest for clean negs,

Jim

Kirk Keyes · Nov 25, 2008

Do you have a filtered water supply? If so, have you changed the filter recently?

Where are you drying your film? Are all the spots similar in shape (i.e. round) or are some long and fiberous looking?

Are they just dust? You know, even with the best of care, dust happens...

Jim Cole · Nov 25, 2008

Kirk,

Unfiltered water and drying in my printing room which although closed off from the rest of the house, not particularly dust free. Most are spots with the occasional fiber.

Now thinking about what I reported in the entire post here, the specs are white on the scan...black on the neg. I think I'll just write this off to dust, dust, dust!

Thanks again,
Jim

edtbjon · Nov 25, 2008

White specks on the neg means dust, i.e. these dust particles have stopped that spot from getting any light. So what you are getting is not dust in this case. Keep the search going...

//Björn

Jim Cole · Nov 25, 2008

Thanks, Bjorn. The journey will continue.

Jim

Kirk Keyes · Nov 25, 2008

White specks on the neg can mean dust sitting on the film during the exposure. Black specks on the neg when scanning can mean dust sitting on the film during scanning.

Jim Cole · Nov 25, 2008

These black specs on the negative will not brush off for scanning. As Kirk said, dust on the neg before exposure would show up as white specs on the developed neg since the film gets no exposure under the dust.

So I have to figure out now what is causing black specs on the neg during development.

Jim

wogster · Nov 25, 2008

Jim Cole said:
These black specs on the negative will not brush off for scanning. As Kirk said, dust on the neg before exposure would show up as white specs on the developed neg since the film gets no exposure under the dust.

So I have to figure out now what is causing black specs on the neg during development.

Jim

Another thing that can cause black specs is dust on the scanner light source, these will typically be out of focus, and will appear like dust on a digital camera sensor. Drove me crazy until I figured this one out, and started cleaning the lamp if the scanner has been sitting a while.

Jim Cole · Nov 25, 2008

Paul,

This could be the source for the more diffuse spots that I get. Thanks for the tip.

Jim

Processing problem in Jobo 3010 drum

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