Processing problem in Jobo 3010 drum

I have also posted this in the Large Format Forum, so forgive me for a duplicate post.

I have been processing my 4x5 in a Jobo 3010 drum for about three months and in that time I have ruined 5 negatives, the last two today.

I have attached a scan of one of today's negs to see if anyone can suggest what is happening.

The first 2 or 3 times this happened, I thought that I had not gotten all the water out of the lid and some leaked down on the emulsion and sat there while the drum sat in a water bath for 10 minutes or so before processing.

However, my first batch today, the drum had been dry and unused for two weeks. I thought maybe that I had pushed the sheet down too far into the chamber where the bottom gets conical and I interupted the flow of water and chemicals. One sheet was ruined out of five in the drum.

I noted that the problem occurred in chamber #2 so I avoided that one on my next batch of three sheets and made sure I didn't push the sheets down too far. All three sheets came out fine.

Then I processed a single sheet (avoiding chamber #2 again and loading the sheet carefully) and thought I made sure the drum lid was dry. This last sheet was ruined.

All 5 sheets have a similar milky white blotch on the end of the sheet that goes into the bottom of the drum. This blotch shows up as black on the scan. You can see the exposure detail through the blotch. I looks to me as if water has sat on the film and caused the coating to go mushy or something (those are technical terms).

Can anybody guess what I'm doing wrong?

This is Fuji Acros film processed in 1:49 Rodinal at 68 degrees using a 5 minute pre-wash. Stop, fixer and washed as normal.

Thanks in advance,

Jim

A milky blotch indicates insufficient fixing. If you soak one of the bad negatives in fixer, the milky spot should vanish proving this. It will probably not restore the image properly as there may have been insufficient developer as well. Hard to tell.

Are you sure that the emulsion was out towards the center of the drum?

PE

Yes, I'm sure all negs were loaded so that the emulsion was not against the barrel of the drum. Thanks for the suggestion of trying to fix again. I'm curious as to why this has only happened to 5 negs out of about 150 processed using the same Ilford Rapid fixer at 1:4 with at least 15ml of fixer (75ml of solution) used per sheet developed and making sure that I always had well above the 210 ml of liquid required by the 3010. Today, I even used fresh fixer on every batch.

Jim

Jim,

You mention being concerned about water draining from the lid. After processing film and rinsing out the lid, I shake it to help with drying. Then I let it dry until the next processing. If I have processed film in the last day or two I shake the lid before I use it again. Occasionally drops of water will appear on the inside of the lid. I wipe them up with a paper towel and shake again. I only use the lid once shaking does not produce new water spots. I find this effective with lids from Expert drums and 1500 series, the only ones I happen to have.

John Powers

John,

After washing out the drum and lid, I beat the lid against my leg on both sides to force out the water. After the lid dries for a hour or so and before using again, I beat it against my leg until no more water appears and then dry off the drops with a microfiber cloth. I cannot imagine that enough water still can drain out to muck up a single sheet in the 5 barrel drum. I mean, what's the chance that the one remaining glob of water (assuming that there still is one after my proceedure) hits the only sheet in the drum? It seems like it would require a very good size drop of water to cause this damage. It also doesn't explain why I lost a negative on my first batch yesterday after the drum and lid had been drying for 2 weeks (at 7000 feet in Arizona - a very dry place). I am stumped on this one, but I do understand that water could still be the culprit here, just don't know how to eliminate it.

Thanks,
Jim

After re-fixing and re-washing one of the negatives in question based on suggections on the LF Forum, the opaque milky white area was reduced to a slight orange stain with all details in the neg visible that may let me get a good scan out of it.

So, is my three minute Ilford Rapid Fix not long enough, or is 10 minutes of washing with five 2 minute 500ml washes not enough...or both?

Thanks for everyone's continued help,

Jim

Insufficient quantity of fix and too short of a fix time (or the fix is too dilute for film).

PE

PE,

Thanks for your continued help with this. I apologize for not recognizing your fixer suggestions in my previous post. The suggested ratio for the Ilford Rapid fix is 1+4 and I have been using 15ml per sheet of film or 75ml of solution. Doing so re-calculations based on the bottle, it comes up that I should be using about 10ml Fixer/sheet which is less than I am using unless my calculations are wrong.

I will definitely increase my fixing time with Acros to 5 minutes, but I would like to know what amount of fixer/sheet you use if indeed you even use the Ilford product.

Thanks again,
Jim

Jim
The recommended minimum volume for the 3010 drum to work properly is 310ml. This minimum of chemicals is needed for the internal flow of the drum to do its magic. I.e. whatever part of the process (and not only the developer) needs at least the minimum amount of fluid to give the uniform development that the Expert drums are known for.
The maximum is about 1000ml, which is more about to protect the motor of the processor (e.g. the CPP2) from getting toasted.
You can and should reuse the fix many times. (One liter of normally diluted fixer should suffice for at least 60-80 sheets of 4x5" film.) There are many ways of testing the fixer for how exhausted it is. The easiest way is to check the "clearing time", i.e. how long does it take for a test strip of film to clear when dipped in the fixer. With fresh fixer this normally happens within 45-60 seconds. When this time goes up to 90-120 seconds the fixer is exhausted.
The old rule is that the time the film should be fixed is double the clearing time. Now, especially with TMax films you have to fix longer to get rid of that purple stain. (There's a thread on that particular subject. This thread is "sticky", i.e. always on top of the listings in this subforum.)

//Björn

Bjorn,

Thanks for the additional info. The 3010 drum has printed right on it that the minimum volume is 210ml. Is the 310ml you mention a better generally accepted value?

I have in the past mixed up 600ml of fixer (120ml+480ml) and used it for 8-9 sheets of film and then disposed of it. I seem to get more tiny white spots on my negs than I would prefer and I thought they were maybe due to the reused fixer so on this last run I was making fresh each time and trying to keep close to the minimum required (both for the min volume required of the 3010 and the number of sheets being developed). I read somewhere else that the white spots may be from foaming wetting agent, so I'm still going to work on that issue.

I did just re-fix and re-wash the second "ruined" negative from yesterday and it came out great, with only a slight discoloration where the original problem was. It looks like I should be able to get a great scan out of that one.

I think I will not only increase the fix time to 5 minutes, but also use a higher volume of fixer solution. I am assuming that my use of 15ml of Ilford Rapid Fixer/sheet of 4x5 is OK. I calculate that Ilford says that 10ml will do the trick.

Thanks again,
Jm

Jim: Quick question. Do you put the wetting agent IN the expert drum? If so, don't!! Might be a cause...simply take the sheets out of the drum, and put them into a tray with a few drops of the wetting agent and distilled water. Rinse for a few moments, then hang up to dry by one corner.

Don't skimp on the volumes...I always use about 60-100 cc greater total volume the the minimum in the expert tanks.

Consider TF4 fixer from Formulary if the problem continues, but I cannot imagine why the Ilford fixer won't work as well.

Ed

Jim;

It is a matter of fully covering the sheets while rotating rather than capacity itself. If you don't get the solution to the film, it won't fix.

PE

Jim,

Ouch. Your leg must hurt from all that beating.

I realize that you are not using Rollo Pyro, but you may find the directions useful.
After a 5 minute staining prewash and then the developing process,
Use 500ml of fix, one time, spinning for 5 minutes.

Wash Process:
Dump the fix. Wash quickly with one 750ml jug of water.
Dump and wash quickly again with a new 750ml jug of water.
Then wash with ten changes of 750ml of water, dumping every two minutes.

When I open the drum at the end of this there is still some stained foam in the lid. I fill the whole drum off the Jobo and dump.

Because I am using well water I then rinse the film sheets once in distilled water before hanging to dry. I use this process on T Max 400 and HP5+ in expert drums for 4x5 and 8x10 as well as two combined 1500 series cylinders for two sheets of 7x17 film. I use Ilford Fix mixed 1:4 parts water.

John Powers

Ed,

I do put the wetting agent in the drum and itdefinitely causes foaming. I will take your suggestion to wet outside of the drum to heart.

PE,

I was always using a bit more than the minimum 210ml posted on the drum itself. On post #9 Bjorn sugested that the minimum was 310ml. In any case the first problem yesterday happened with 450ml of solution, so fixing time seems to be the issue since capacity seems to be less important.

Thanks for the continued support,
Jim

Jim;

That wedge shaped defect looks like lack of contact with solution. That is why I asked.

Make sure that your processor is level.

PE

John,

I do occasionally have a bit of a bruise on my leg, but if I banged the lid on the counter it wouldn't be a happy lid.

I wil start using 500ml of fixer solution as per your recommendation and fix for 5 minutes. Hopefully, I won't see those ugly stains again, but if I do, I know how to "fix" them.

I do all my washes with about the same amount of water and time as you do, but only do 5 cycles which many deem sufficient for Acros/Rodinal. I have pretty good tap water here in Flagstaff so a little wetting agent done outside the drum as per Ed's suggestion should give me some nice clean negs.

Thanks for your help,

Jim

PE,

I am having a difficult time understanding why this happens to one sheet at a time whether I process 1 or 5 in the drum and seemingly regardless of fixer solution volume. Seems like if I was not fixing long enough, more sheets would be affected. Maybe I have a wierd energy vortex under my house. The motor base is set on a very level granite kitchen counter so I don't think that is an issue. Could be that the drum rocks a couple of mm because the drive wheels on the motor base don't exactly fit between the rims of the drum. Could be a repetitive rocking that affects only one well in the drum. I'll have to figure out a solution for that one. Thanks for planting the seed.

Jim

If the drum is not level, there may be a high spot that prevents full solution coverage at one point in the rotation. Also, the jobo may not be set to the right rotation speed or cycle. The 3000 series has a larger diameter and must be very level.

I use them constantly for paper mainly and have had to rethink the amount of developer and fixer. I also use a higher rotation rate.

PE

PE,

I cannot adjust the rotation rate of the Unicolor roller but I have a feeling it would be beneficial if I could. I wish Jobo would make a simple motorized base for the 3010 for those of us who do not want to invest in the full processor. I will pay more attention to the exact level of the drum for the next few batches and see if I can eliminate the issue. Long term, I need to figure out how to get the Unicolor roller wheels to fit the drum better. They are amout 1mm too wide.

Thanks again,
Jim

Just to fill in on what I wrote before: Jim, you are correct about the 210ml being printed on the drum.
But Jobo have stated somewhere in their quarterly journals (which were published in the -90'ies) that it should be more than 210, rather a minimum of 300 or so. These journals can be found on Dead Link Removed along with all the manuals.
I use a CPP2 for my processing, but a motor base should be fine if level. I read a very simple tip on how to avoid the drum from drifting off the motor base. Simply strap a thick rubber band around the drum, so that it locks against the wheels of the motor base.
It also seems like you already know that you should keep the wetting agent far away from the Jobo drums. I do the wetting agent treatment in a small tray after taking the film out of the drum or taking the roll film from the reel. It's actually even worse with roll film reels, where it makes the grooves a bit sticky.

Finally, if I understand your problem correctly, it started with some kind of white spots or dots on your films. This lead to using the fixer as one-shot, while using minimum quantity. When you started using fixer in minimum amount, the other problems which looked as the attached neg in post #1 started.
Apart from the wetting agent issue, which is already addressed, there could be a water quality problem. Anyhow, going for a minimal amount of chemicals is good if you use the chemicals one-shot. Fixer is one chemical which could and really should be reused until exhausted. When I develop in the 3010 I always use at least 600ml or so of fixer. It's simply a matter of checking the fixer status with a thin test strip of undeveloped scrap film. I recon this is far more environmentally friendly than using the fixer one-shot, at least if you dispose of the fixer in the proper place, where the silver can be taken care of.
Think of it as an aquarium. It's easier to maintain good hygiene in a large aquarium, with a large volume, than it is in a smaller aquarium. If disaster strikes, some fish get sick in the larger tank, while it's a holocaust in the smaller tank.

//Björn

Jim;

On a Jobo, the rotation is just a tad over 360 degrees each cycle but it has 2 position, one for the smaller 1000 and 2000 series and one for the 3000 series. This is due to the larger diameter which changes the agitation at the outer surface. The other types of rotators use rollers, so with a larger diameter, the rotation rate does not change, and the distance travelled is always a "linear" unchanging distance regardless of the diameter of the drum.

At least this is the way I picture it.

I hope my explanation suits your condition and that you understand it.

If so, then the roller will not complete a 360 in every cycle and one of the cylinders in the 3000 series will never be truly submerged in the solution, it will just get heavy splashing of any excess. --- Unless you use more than recommended.

Now, the developer may be more potent than the fix, IDK, but when you see wedge shaped marks that were unfixed as you appear to have, then the fixer did not get there in enough quantity or for enough time to do the proper job. In fact, the same sheet may have been a bit underdeveloped. We cannot tell until the fixer problem is taken care of.

Hope this helps.

PE

PE,

I believe Jim is using his Jobo drum on a Uniroller base which is uni-directional afaik. I used to use a Beseler which could be set to roll one way or change directions at intervals.


Fred

Bjorn,

Thanks for the clarification. I have decided to use at least 500ml of fixer if not the 600ml you recommend and use it until exhaused. Actually the problem of the botched negs started before I started using the fixer one-shot, when I was using 600ml of fixer for up to 8 sheets before disposing (steel wool method). I started using the fixer one-shot to address the white spot issue that I now think in wetting agent related.

I need to find a heavy duty rubber band at a hardware store to help solve the drum drift problem on the motor base. I tried once with a fairly heavy 1/2 wide rubber band, but it didn't help. I now just let the drum bump up against a full water pitcher which keeps it in place. It doesn't help the slight wobble that occurs as the drum rides up on a rim and then drops back down. Using more solution may make this problem moot, although I experienced this problem before when I was using 600mm of solution. I will see if fixing for 5 minutes will do the job. I just wish the wheels on the motor base were 1-2mm closer together to fit nicely between the rims of the 3010 and eliminate the wobble.

Thanks again for your suggestions,

Jim

PE and Fred,

My uniroller base is bidirectional if I want it to be, but I generally got such smooth development without reversing that I quit using the reversing function. I moved the reversing switch from inside the motor base to the outside so I could control the reversing action. The stock mechanism on the Uniroller switches too quickly for the 3010 drum to make a complete revolution. After I made the mod, I was reversing direction every 15 seconds at first, then 30 and then I stopped reversing. Maybe I need to start reversing again to eliminate any standing waves or similar problem that may occur in the 3010 with the slow rotation rate on the motor base.

I appreciate all of this feedback,

Jim

I would guess that the defect in the OP is at the rear of the drum away from the solution sump in the drum. The cylinders are single ended, with only one open end, and if the solution is insufficient, it does not reach the back of a sheet and leaves a characteristic calling card, a V shape with the wide end pointing at the base of the drum away from the front. The pointy end of the defect is usually towards the front, cap end, of the drum.

As for the roller, I suspect that this change in your procedure somehow contributed. I know that there are two types, but from your post I could not be sure which you used and what mode you used it in.

PE