Processing film with rotary base

[Gerry M]

I would like input on using this method for developing film. I've only used the inversion process in the past. I just bought a used Beseler Rotary Base and plan on using it with my Jobo 1500 series tanks. How much do you reduce the developing time? Is it best to rotate in one direction, or reverse rotations? Is rotation speed critical? Any input would be really appreciated. My usual ingredients are: B&W, 100/200/400 film, Rodinal/D76/XTOL. I would like to use HC110, but seem to always have problems when using it.

Thanks,

Gerry

 

[BradS]

I think that you may find the diameter of the 1500 series drums is too small for the roller base. I don't know for sure as I have the Unicolor motor base...not the Beseler but the wheels on the Unicolor are too far apart for the 1500 drums.

Anyway, here are some of my expereinces...
I processed roll films with HC-110 in an inversion tank for years and was very pleased with the results. When I started in with sheet film , I went to a large drum and motor base (after trying many less expensive options first). As much as I love HC-110, I find it not well suited to continuous agitation. I just builds too much contrast too quickly. I tried for a long time to work around this and finally went back to good old D76 and later, D23. This is where I am today.

I modified the Unicolor motor so that it does NOT change directions. People will howl and swear that you have to change directions...I've never done it and have never seen any need to. As with all things, test it for yourself...YMMV.

Kodak's film data sheets actually give a pretty good, if too brief, discussion and guidelines for processing their films in rotary tanks with continuous agitation. I've followed those guidelines - even with Ilford films. I do not remember the specifics...I think they actually provide starting times specific to this regimen. In general, I think it safe to reduce your dev time by about 10% and adjust as necessary.

Caveat: I'm only a hobbist...I take a very relaxed approach to all of this...I measure the ingredients for D23 with measuring spoons...I'm to the point where I don't even measure the temp of the D-23 before pouring it in the tank (I still measure temp with D-76 and adjust time as necessary). With D23, I just mix it up, let it come to room temp (overnight) , pour it in and let it roll for 12 minutes...If I've come anywhere close to getting the exposure right, the negs turn out just fine.

 

[Gerry M]

Thanks for the input, Brad. My first 2 rolls of Arista 400/HC110/5 mins were terribly over developed. Then again, I haven't had very good results with HC110 & inversion process. Probably just me, as I know, and have seen, good results by others.

 

[BradS]

What dilution of HC-110 did you use?

Arista EDU Ultra ?
or
Arista Premium?

 

[Gerry M]

I used dilution B. 15 ml in a JOBO 1540 that states 470 ml chem for rotation. Arista Edu Ultra. 5 mins at 68 F. I did increase the tank diameter 1/4" by wrapping a bit of sheet rubber around the tank. I may try adding more to the diameter to slow tank rpm's. I also will switch to D76 next attempt.

 

[BradS]

Arista EDU Ultra and HC-110 is just a bad combination all around. You might get better results diluting to 1+49 and staying with something close to 5 minutes. My gut says that slowing down the RPM a little is not going to make much difference...it might however, be interesting to slow it down a lot...as in 2 RPM or so.

D76 (1+1) would make things easier

 

[Gerry M]

I dug back thru some of my negative files and found an Arista Ed Ul 400/HC110 combo/inversion. Now I remember and you are right; that's a bad mix. I will definitely be using D76 next time. Thanks again.

 

[LJH]

Try knocking 15% off the initial N time and use slow speeds.

Also, have a look at the Massive Dev charts; they often have rotary times.

 

[jcoldslabs]

Just to add a counterpoint, I use HC-110 exclusively and process all of my sheet film in drums and have never had any problems with contrast being too high. I've haven't shot Arista.EDU Ultra, but for other emulsions the combination works quite well. My typical set-up is as follows:

HC-110 1:39 @ 68°F
Cibachrome drum
Unicolor reversing motor base

The normal processing time for most films is around 6-7 minutes. Anyway, good luck.

Jonathan

 

[jerrybro]

10 to 15% adjustment is typical. Some people find a prewet cycle helps. I use a Jobo and love it. I bounce between Xtol and D23. I also had good results with dilute TmaxRS.

 

[donkee]

I had poor results using HC110 with Ultra too. D-76 does a great job though.

 

[MattKing]

I use the rotary base for:

1) the first 30 seconds of development;
2) stop bath;
3) fixer (two baths);
4) Hypo Clearing agent.

The rest of the development (HC-110 dil E, replenished) is done using inversion.

Works for me.

 

[StoneNYC]

So I just switched too, like today...

Basically, my old Paterson tank and mod54 got messed up, and being that I'm going to start doing more color processing in sheet film, I decided that it was best to acquire a 2509 since the MOD54 is no longer usable.

So unless I want to start using 1500 mL of chemistry her in version, I need to switch to a rotary processing system, so here IM again starting from scratch with all of my development times that I've spent the past 2-3 years "figuring out". Luckily many of the experiments that I used to do as I was progressing and learning no longer need to be done, and I've whittled down my films to just a few, but still I have to start all over again.

Some questions I have, are about pushing and pulling film, if I'm pushing film do I still reduced by 10% of what my actual pushed times would be, or is there another equation for pushed or pulled film as far as times are concerned?

I've looked on the massive development chart times and I can't seem to find anything that indicates rotary processing, I mostly use the iPhone app so I've also looked on the website and didn't see anything that mentioned rotary processing times, I'm going off a very common films like TMY-2 with DD-X which I would think would have both rotary and inversion times because it's such a common combination of film and developer but don't. Neither does Rodinal with the same film, unless I'm just somehow missing the information and it's right there in front of me and I just didn't see it.

Sorry to butt in on the original posters post, but I sort of have the same question is it better to use the continuous agitations game or the reversing? I know that one poster said that he uses continuous and that everyone else would comment that that would be incorrect, so I'm guessing this means the common idea is that you should be using the reverse agitation setting?

I have a 2551 series multi tank 5, and also a color by Beseler motor base.

Also the chemical amounts listed on the actual tank sticker tell me that I can process 8 sheets of 4 x 5 with 560 mL of chemistry, that's with the 2509 reel, however the 2509 takes six sheets, and the multi tank takes 2 reels, so that would equal 12 total sheets not 8, so I'm a little confused as to why it lists like this? I understand the idea of exhausting chemistry, but if that were the case why wouldn't they just list 12 sheets with a higher amount of chemistry? I checked the height, and 560 mL certainly covers the amount of surface area where the sheet film would be processed in fact it over covers so it's certainly not a question of being able to properly get in touch all of the film so I'm a little confused.

I thought about creating an entirely new post about this, but this one existed after doing some searching, and it seems to be basically what I'm asking though I wish the title said switching from inversion to rotary with massive dev chart app as that might catch more peoples eyes who actually use their phone app for processing

OK any advice is appreciated! (Thanks OP, hope this helps you too!) also, please note that for this post because there was so much to type, I used my Siri dictation on my phone to dictate many of the paragraphs, so if anything is misspelled or somehow sounds weird, it's probably because I didn't quite catch an error. Thanks.

 

[MattKing]

Any sticker attached to a tank will only indicate what volume to use to cover the film.

 

[StoneNYC]

Any sticker attached to a tank will only indicate what volume to use to cover the film.

Right but it also lists number of sheets....

 

[jerrybro]

IIRC it was recommended when using the 2509 reels to only load 4 sheets, but with the 2509n you could use all 6 slots. I have the 2551 and 2509n reels and have done 12 sheets without issue, BW and E6.

 

[StoneNYC]

IIRC it was recommended when using the 2509 reels to only load 4 sheets, but with the 2509n you could use all 6 slots. I have the 2551 and 2509n reels and have done 12 sheets without issue, BW and E6.

OH, that makes sense, probably have the older model 2551 before they updated the 2509 to the n version... thanks!

 

[jerrybro]

When Jobo was very active in film they had a group looking for some way to easily convert standard developing times into rotary times. No simple correlation could be found until they started implemented a presoak. If you Google Jobo presoak you will find a link to Jobo Quarterly JQ9802 that has all the details. I've done with and without and found no negative attributes to the presoak.

 

[mrred]

I found the magic happened with xtol 1:2 or replenished. But I like stretching out developing times for consistency. My base does not have a reverse option and I did not find it was any issue.

 

[CatLABS]

So I just switched too, like today...

Basically, my old Paterson tank and mod54 got messed up, and being that I'm going to start doing more color processing in sheet film, I decided that it was best to acquire a 2509 since the MOD54 is no longer usable.

you can always buy another one, cant you?

So unless I want to start using 1500 mL of chemistry her in version...

You only need 1250ml for inversion in a multitank 2. Since you are using a multitank 5 (2550), inversion would call for more then 3 liters...

I need to switch to a rotary processing system, so here IM again starting from scratch with all of my development times that I've spent the past 2-3 years "figuring out". Luckily many of the experiments that I used to do as I was progressing and learning no longer need to be done, and I've whittled down my films to just a few, but still I have to start all over again.

Luckily for you - color processing is universally standardized, and there is nothing to test. Just follow the instructions.

I have a 2551 series multi tank 5, and also a color by Beseler motor base.

Also the chemical amounts listed on the actual tank sticker tell me that I can process 8 sheets of 4 x 5 with 560 mL of chemistry, that's with the 2509 reel, however the 2509 takes six sheets, and the multi tank takes 2 reels, so that would equal 12 total sheets not 8, so I'm a little confused as to why it lists like this? I understand the idea of exhausting chemistry, but if that were the case why wouldn't they just list 12 sheets with a higher amount of chemistry? I checked the height, and 560 mL certainly covers the amount of surface area where the sheet film would be processed in fact it over covers so it's certainly not a question of being able to properly get in touch all of the film so I'm a little confused.

The reason for this is that the Jobo CPE2 has a max load capacity of 600ml. To prevent folks from over loading the motor, the labels were written as they are.
There is no reason not to load 12 sheets in the multitank 5. If you are processing color, you still only need 560ml. If you are doing BW, you need to make sure you have enough active material per SQ Inch inside the tank. This might be the same (IE D76) or much much more (Ilfosol 1:3). 560ml is the minimum needed to cover all the sheets.

The time aged question about weather or not to reverse the direction after a few rotations has no real answer - the short answer is that it does not matter. What does matter is the speed of rotation, regardless if reversing or not.

As a rule of thumb you want to reduce 10-15% of dev times for continuous agitation (rotation or otherwise), however, in most cases, with dev times in the 10 min range, this has little meaning, and that 10% is swallowed in both the exposure control, and temp control margin of error. You will know after one run if you need to reduce time or not if you know what you want your negative to look like. If you don't, you will be happy either way, start with stated times -10%.

 

[StoneNYC]

you can always buy another one, cant you?

You only need 1250ml for inversion in a multitank 2. Since you are using a multitank 5 (2550), inversion would call for more then 3 liters...

I used a measuring cup, to cover the film I need 1500ml apparently to cover ONE 2509n reel, to cover 2 yes I need 3L

Luckily for you - color processing is universally standardized, and there is nothing to test. Just follow the instructions.

Just B&W for now though, I've done color processing so I know the times are standardized, it's the B&W I'm worried about.

The reason for this is that the Jobo CPE2 has a max load capacity of 600ml. To prevent folks from over loading the motor, the labels were written as they are.
There is no reason not to load 12 sheets in the multitank 5. If you are processing color, you still only need 560ml. If you are doing BW, you need to make sure you have enough active material per SQ Inch inside the tank. This might be the same (IE D76) or much much more (Ilfosol 1:3). 560ml is the minimum needed to cover all the sheets.

Well the multitank 5 has at least one "setup" listed for about 960ml (memory my be off slightly, but more than 600ml that's for sure) so does this mean only the CPP2 can handle that?

I don't own a CPE2... I own a CPE (original) that is 220v so it's basically useless for me, can't find the correct converter for 120 anywhere and probably can't handle much anyway.

The time aged question about weather or not to reverse the direction after a few rotations has no real answer - the short answer is that it does not matter. What does matter is the speed of rotation, regardless if reversing or not.

So the Beseler rotary base has only one speed... Not sure it's the right one.... But does have continuous or reversing rotation....

As a rule of thumb you want to reduce 10-15% of dev times for continuous agitation (rotation or otherwise), however, in most cases, with dev times in the 10 min range, this has little meaning, and that 10% is swallowed in both the exposure control, and temp control margin of error. You will know after one run if you need to reduce time or not if you know what you want your negative to look like. If you don't, you will be happy either way, start with stated times -10%.

Thanks, my first test will be a pushed film, but still will reduce by 10% - 15% thanks.

 

[CatLABS]

I used a measuring cup, to cover the film I need 1500ml apparently to cover ONE 2509n reel, to cover 2 yes I need 3L

Actually, the Multitank 2 base design is different, resulting in a total capacity of 1250, but iyou are correct that the multitank 5 needs about 3.5 to fill.

Well the multitank 5 has at least one "setup" listed for about 960ml (memory my be off slightly, but more than 600ml that's for sure) so does this mean only the CPP2 can handle that?

Yes, various load options, which are only supposed to be used on CPA/CPP or ATL machines. CPE2+ solved that BTW. As this is the only sheet film option for the CPE2 system, that was a precaution, the 1500 system tanks offer a higher capacity at lower min volumes.

I don't own a CPE2... I own a CPE (original) that is 220v so it's basically useless for me, can't find the correct converter for 120 anywhere and probably can't handle much anyway.

You must have forgotten the many links me and other users sent you in another thread for locally available transformers. I just got one for a customer the other day, it was a 1000W unit, multi switching, with dual fuses, for under 50$ including shipping. That said, the Multitank 5 will fit your machine.
Just for kicks - here is another one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-W-Watt...ravel_Adapters_Converters&hash=item53e0ca782e

Thanks, my first test will be a pushed film, but still will reduce by 10% - 15% thanks.

If you want to get a baseline, why not start with a baseline film at N? How will you know if the variance if any, is due to the exposure, push or compensation for the continuous agitation?

 

[StoneNYC]

Actually, the Multitank 2 base design is different, resulting in a total capacity of 1250, but iyou are correct that the multitank 5 needs about 3.5 to fill.


Yes, various load options, which are only supposed to be used on CPA/CPP or ATL machines. CPE2+ solved that BTW. As this is the only sheet film option for the CPE2 system, that was a precaution, the 1500 system tanks offer a higher capacity at lower min volumes.


You must have forgotten the many links me and other users sent you in another thread for locally available transformers. I just got one for a customer the other day, it was a 1000W unit, multi switching, with dual fuses, for under 50$ including shipping. That said, the Multitank 5 will fit your machine.
Just for kicks - here is another one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-W-Watt...ravel_Adapters_Converters&hash=item53e0ca782e


If you want to get a baseline, why not start with a baseline film at N? How will you know if the variance if any, is due to the exposure, push or compensation for the continuous agitation?

1. The 2509n doesn't fit in the 1500 tank (which I have one small one that takes a single 120 roll or 2 35mm's (if I ever shot that anymore.

2. Thanks greatly for the link, there were so many differing opinions I couldn't tell what was what and then ran out of money lol, when one of my items in the "for sale" area sells I'll pick up the transformer! Catlabs approved makes me feel safe.

3. Because I have those shot, I'm not wasting film on a test when I can test this less important shoot (even though it's a push), I know what to expect from both images and it will give me a good idea of how to adjust for the 4 other images I have in a second run that aren't pushed.

Thanks for the help, I've been thinking that when my tax return comes back, I might speak to you about a CPP2+ (won't be enough for a CPP3+ and I like the knobs, and I can't tell what else is better about it for the extra grand) but you probably can explain that.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[nworth]

A couple of notes. I agree that HC-110 is not great for rotary development. I have no idea of why that should be the case. Pyrocat-HD, which is a fine developer in general, was designed for rotary tanks. D-23 works well. As noted above, be sure to use enough solution. The issue is to have enough developing agent to do the job evenly and properly. I found I needed at least 300 ml per 8X10 sheet or equivalent. That might be hard to handle in some tanks. I also found that I didn't have to reduce the developing time much - usually about 10 percent.

 

[StoneNYC]

Well I did it, 15% reduction in standard times with Beseler Base on reversing agitation setting in Rodinal 1:50

My comments are that the neg seems about right, but the grain is not as "sharp" but is less defined, so I can't decide if I like this or not, I'll have to do more testing, but it seems to minimize the hard-ness of the grain, but also makes it less sharp. Not sure if I like this or not... hmmm have more to do to decide for sure.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)