Problems with MOD54 system and 4x5 film? banding etc.

crumpet8 · Nov 28, 2016

Hi,

Ive gotten some strange banding in some of my pictures/on my negatives and I was wondering if someone else knows what the cause is? I think its from developing?

I use a paterson tank at the MOD54 holder.

Ive used this particular film holder before and after with fine results.

The image was too large so heres a link. Note that there is also some other strange blotchines on this particular negative. The other times Ive seen only the banding.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YKjWpmBD...rDGMC9NUgzLt3-qAuklV9QPargCLcB/s1600/APUG.jpg

Thanks

shutterfinger · Nov 28, 2016

I use Jobo 2500 tanks and reels.
The banding? appears to be where the sheet of film was touching the edge of the holder and did not get sufficient developing and the band? in the center is possibly from the sheet of film touching another sheet or a support brace.
The touch will have to be very light to a very narrow gap between sheets that reduced chemical flow between the sheets.
Always load a developing holder so that the emulsion side of the film faces the center of the tank.
Try refixing with fresh fixer for 10 minutes then rewash and see if that improves the negative.

When posting about a negative/developing problem its best to post a picture of the negative not a positive made from it.

MattKing · Nov 28, 2016

Which version of Paterson tank?

vdonovan · Nov 29, 2016

I agree with shutterfinger, it looks like you might have loaded it emulsion-out, and that it was also touching another sheet.

The Mod54 has a serrated area on the top, if you line this serration up with the notch on your film, it will mean that you are loading it the correct way, emulsion-out.

locutus · Nov 29, 2016

Yes, your issue looks like a problem with centering of the sheet.

What i do myself to confirm the film is in right;

After having the sheet in both supports, grab it by the sides and move it up and down, if you hit the top/end braces you are fine. also confirm by feel that your film notch is on the same orientation as the top of the holder. Feeling the top of the holder is easy, i recognize it by the grab holes on top.

The other issue to be careful of is agitation, do gentle agitations otherwise you can get drag marks around the holder fingers.

crumpet8 · Nov 29, 2016

vdonovan said:
I agree with shutterfinger, it looks like you might have loaded it emulsion-out, and that it was also touching another sheet.

The Mod54 has a serrated area on the top, if you line this serration up with the notch on your film, it will mean that you are loading it the correct way, emulsion-out.

You said emulsion out twice here. Do you mean the emulsion side should face in? i.e. notches in top right corner and the emulsion is facing me?

crumpet8 · Nov 29, 2016

shutterfinger said:
I use Jobo 2500 tanks and reels.
The banding? appears to be where the sheet of film was touching the edge of the holder and did not get sufficient developing and the band? in the center is possibly from the sheet of film touching another sheet or a support brace.
The touch will have to be very light to a very narrow gap between sheets that reduced chemical flow between the sheets.
Always load a developing holder so that the emulsion side of the film faces the center of the tank.
Try refixing with fresh fixer for 10 minutes then rewash and see if that improves the negative.

When posting about a negative/developing problem its best to post a picture of the negative not a positive made from it.

Thanks! Some great advice here (and from others). Ive only been developing two sheets at a time so it couldnt have been touching another negative, and the strange thing is the banding doesnt line up with the the film comes in contact with the holder.

I will start develping with emulsion in! I suspect if I loaded the film in the outermost notch and emulsion side out it touches the side of the tank. Thanks again for the tips Ive only processed roll film before, so havent had this problem... Currently on about my 8th 4x5 sheet ever. About half have come out fine

crumpet8 · Nov 29, 2016

locutus said:
Yes, your issue looks like a problem with centering of the sheet.

What i do myself to confirm the film is in right;

After having the sheet in both supports, grab it by the sides and move it up and down, if you hit the top/end braces you are fine. also confirm by feel that your film notch is on the same orientation as the top of the holder. Feeling the top of the holder is easy, i recognize it by the grab holes on top.

The other issue to be careful of is agitation, do gentle agitations otherwise you can get drag marks around the holder fingers.

Ive been doing this as well, but it took a couple of tries before getting the feel for it. Sometimes I feel like the corners of the film are sticking way out from the cylindrical shape of the holder...

crumpet8 · Nov 29, 2016

Hey everyone, So i did some more tests this evening and got the same problem on a couple of pictures. Heres a rundown of what happened. Will post photos later (will try post photos of the negatives as well shutterfinger!)

3 test shots. two film holders. slots 1, 2 (same holder) and 4 (second holder)

took two photos of my dog with slots FH4 and FH1. Both have a line under the dogs nose, even though they were processed on opposite sides of the MOD54. Could this be because of tilt? or something else other than the processing?

A photo of my girlfriend came out fine and was taken from FH2 and processed in the same side as FH1 but on the outside.

shutterfinger · Nov 29, 2016

Time to look at your camera. The negative of your pet shows a line confined to the image area. Touching during processing would leave a mark extending out to the edge of the film.
A light leak in the camera back or film holders will extend out to the edge of the film usually.
A streak confined to the image area suggests the shutter or camera bellows.
What camera and lens/shutter are you using? The lens info is on the trim ring around the front edge of the lens, the shutter is outside of the lens barrel.

crumpet8 · Nov 29, 2016

Strange thing is I thought I saw that band on the computer at school, got home and looked again on my own pc and cant see it anymore! Never saw it on the negative, but never used a loupe so thought it was too faint/small to see at that size.

On the other negatives and images the banding is much clearer. I think my process is getting better thanks to you guys though

The camera is a horseman HD45 and the lens is a Linhof schneider xenar 4,5/150 150mm 4,5

shutterfinger · Nov 29, 2016

Follow the bold text in post #2 religiously, no exceptions.
Just under your index finger holding the negative is a wide band of under exposure. The only things I can think of is a shutter release cable hanging over the lens during exposure or a string of some type dangling from the top of the bellows when in portrait position. A hair in front of or behind the lens might be the culprit also. Examine the back for anything protruding into the image area.
All should be clear from lens front to film plane of an installed film holder except for the shutter and aperture blades when at reas and the aperture blades only during exposure.

What shutter is that Xenar in, a Synchro Compur or Copal?

crumpet8 · Nov 30, 2016

shutterfinger said:
Follow the bold text in post #2 religiously, no exceptions.
Just under your index finger holding the negative is a wide band of under exposure. The only things I can think of is a shutter release cable hanging over the lens during exposure or a string of some type dangling from the top of the bellows when in portrait position. A hair in front of or behind the lens might be the culprit also. Examine the back for anything protruding into the image area.
All should be clear from lens front to film plane of an installed film holder except for the shutter and aperture blades when at reas and the aperture blades only during exposure.

What shutter is that Xenar in, a Synchro Compur or Copal?

Hey sorry, its a synchro compur. The under exposure under my finger is actually just something in the background of the picture (see attached). My camera is super clean. Am following your advice religously! The last couple of times in the darkroom seem to have worked out great.

shutterfinger · Nov 30, 2016

The initial Mod 54 had problems. I don't remember if it was chemical flow or sharp edges or possibly both. Do some research on it. The second version fixed those problems.

I have 2 worn out Synchro Compurs in the work desk drawer, 1 second runs 2 to 3 seconds, 1/100 runs 1/50 after a CLA.

Michael W · Nov 30, 2016

I think I may have had a similar problem to the dark band along the top shown in the first photo. Being a positive this means that strip was underdeveloped compared to the rest of the sheet. I started using more dev than the 1 liter recommended - think I now use 1.1 or 1.2 liters and haven't had the thin strip since, fingers crossed.

crumpet8 · Dec 1, 2016

That's interesting, I just used an amount which I saw covered the entire film and that happened to be 1L.

shutterfinger · Dec 1, 2016

I and several other users of Jobo 2500 tanks found that increasing from the stated 270ml chemistry for rotary processing to 300ml eliminated some edge problems so its no surprise that .1ml or .2ml increase in your Paterson tank will do the same.

crumpet8 · Dec 1, 2016

Noted. Thanks everyone Going to learn how to make prints this week by the way! Pretty excited...

Problems with MOD54 system and 4x5 film? banding etc.

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