Problems with curly RC prints

naugastyle · Dec 27, 2009

So many more posts here dedicated to flattening fiber prints. Does no one else have issues with RC prints?

My understanding is that my issues with RC prints are because it's winter, it's already dry outside, and the extremely high (uncontrollable, unfortunately) indoors heat makes it worse. It's actually a more egregious curl than my FB prints, because it fights more, and unevenly. If I try to hold down the edges with a mat I get severe waves through the main part of the print (FB on the other hand does more of a gentle ballooning right at the center). The problem increases as the size does. 4x6 prints can still be slid into photo album pockets and look OK if not board-flat, and may eventually flatten more just by being in an album. 5x7s are pretty bad. 8x10s are unbearable (had to use adhesive all over the back the last time I framed some). And I don't WANT to mat & frame everything, particularly RCs... I would like to be able to hold them in with just photo corners without these weird popping centers.

I had no issues with RC prints when I started printing again in October, but that's right before the outdoors cold/indoors heat started. (During that month I even hang-dried an FB print by one corner with very little curl...now I have to peg every corner). I'll have to search around for prints from that month to see if they've curled up now, but I used a lot of those old prints for tests more recently so I might not have a control sample. However, if my own previously-flat RC prints DO curl once introduced to dry air, why don't my Fuji Frontier prints curl? I also have my perfectly-flat RC prints from 10 years ago, although some are framed and some are in a box (not a photo-storage box, just a big under-bed box w/ other stuff).

I've heard the suggestion to increase humidity to help flatten these prints. Yesterday I dried my RC prints on a screen with trays of steaming hot water underneath. Seemed like a big improvement...until I brought the dry prints home. The curl appeared then. When I previously tried drying on the screen WITHOUT the hot water underneath, the curl was already apparent at the darkroom.

Have also heard that this stems from the paper base and there's nothing I can do. Yesterday I tried Foma Variant III, Fomatone WT, and Ilford WT. They're all curled. And I really think my earlier prints on Ilford were not. The 10-year-old prints were also Ilford, probably MGIII.

I do realize I don't make as much effort to flatten RCs under weights as I do with FB, so maybe that's part of the solution. But it just seems that no one else needs to flatten RC this way, and I usually print so many MORE RCs than FBs that I logistically can't flatten them all in a single layer, but stacks don't flatten well either.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Jon Shiu · Dec 27, 2009

One factor not mentioned is to limit the wet time. If left in the water too long, RC will get water inside and dry in a wavy manner. If you can limit wet time to 10-15 minutes, that would be good.

Jon

dpurdy · Dec 27, 2009

I just did a very large rc print job in all perle 5x7 and it was a nightmare. Two factors I figure are the issues. Humidity and wet time. You can't leave rc prints soaking for hours like you can fiber. Recently our weather was cold and dry and I ran the gas furnace for several days and the humidity of my darkroom area went down to 23%. Not good. I had some prints with more curl than others so they didn't lay well. I finally got it all presentable... nearly 200 prints, by resoaking some and working the curl back out as they dried. I also put quite a lot of them in a warm dry mount press and the curled them against the emulsion as they cooled and then storing them under weight. I used a 250 sheet 5x7 box lid to stand the stack of prints in with the curl going against what it wanted to do. Then I put the prints in the lid in a stack and put the bottom of the box in on top of them and then filled the bottom of the box with weights and left it for a week. When the client came to pick them up they were pretty flat. What happened after he took them home I don't know.
I hate RC
Dennis

rwboyer · Dec 27, 2009

naugastyle said:
So many more posts here dedicated to flattening fiber prints. Does no one else have issues with RC prints?

My understanding is that my issues with RC prints are because it's winter, it's already dry outside, and the extremely high (uncontrollable, unfortunately) indoors heat makes it worse. It's actually a more egregious curl than my FB prints, because it fights more, and unevenly. If I try to hold down the edges with a mat I get severe waves through the main part of the print (FB on the other hand does more of a gentle ballooning right at the center). The problem increases as the size does. 4x6 prints can still be slid into photo album pockets and look OK if not board-flat, and may eventually flatten more just by being in an album. 5x7s are pretty bad. 8x10s are unbearable (had to use adhesive all over the back the last time I framed some). And I don't WANT to mat & frame everything, particularly RCs... I would like to be able to hold them in with just photo corners without these weird popping centers.

I had no issues with RC prints when I started printing again in October, but that's right before the outdoors cold/indoors heat started. (During that month I even hang-dried an FB print by one corner with very little curl...now I have to peg every corner). I'll have to search around for prints from that month to see if they've curled up now, but I used a lot of those old prints for tests more recently so I might not have a control sample. However, if my own previously-flat RC prints DO curl once introduced to dry air, why don't my Fuji Frontier prints curl? I also have my perfectly-flat RC prints from 10 years ago, although some are framed and some are in a box (not a photo-storage box, just a big under-bed box w/ other stuff).

I've heard the suggestion to increase humidity to help flatten these prints. Yesterday I dried my RC prints on a screen with trays of steaming hot water underneath. Seemed like a big improvement...until I brought the dry prints home. The curl appeared then. When I previously tried drying on the screen WITHOUT the hot water underneath, the curl was already apparent at the darkroom.

Have also heard that this stems from the paper base and there's nothing I can do. Yesterday I tried Foma Variant III, Fomatone WT, and Ilford WT. They're all curled. And I really think my earlier prints on Ilford were not. The 10-year-old prints were also Ilford, probably MGIII.

I do realize I don't make as much effort to flatten RCs under weights as I do with FB, so maybe that's part of the solution. But it just seems that no one else needs to flatten RC this way, and I usually print so many MORE RCs than FBs that I logistically can't flatten them all in a single layer, but stacks don't flatten well either.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

I know this doesn't really help but I have never ever had anything like this happen with RC paper. My vote is also a wet time / penetration issue.

I have lived and worked in many different environments from tropical to very cold dry northeast winters and forced hot air heat with almost no humidity and I know really bad curl from my Fiber prints in hopeless environments but like I said even when my Fiber prints were a real bear I never had curl issues with my RC work prints/contacts and I mistreat those so bad I am ashamed.

RB

naugastyle · Dec 27, 2009

Yes, I've heard about the wet-time factor as well. So when I first started, I was leaving my prints in the water for the entire session, because I brought them home wet anyway to hang in my bathroom (the darkroom is an hour away). So they'd be wet for 10 hours or more. But those early prints didn't curl even with all this wet time. More recently I discovered that drying screens can be placed over the sink in a way that allows me to continue printing, so I've been trying to stop after every roll to wash, squeegee, place on screen. This is still an hour or so, not 10-15 minutes, and there is no difference in the curl from the 10+ hour soaks. Also, my 10-years-ago printing sessions also involved multiple hours of soaking with flat results (and then I only hang-dried, no squeegee, no screens), and other people (living in different areas) tell me they leave their prints soaking a long time with no ill effects.

They're not wavy/warped looking when dry. There's just a curl that seems pretty slight until you try to hold down the edges...then it fights.

rwboyer · Dec 27, 2009

naugastyle said:
Yes, I've heard about the wet-time factor as well. So when I first started, I was leaving my prints in the water for the entire session, because I brought them home wet anyway to hang in my bathroom (the darkroom is an hour away). So they'd be wet for 10 hours or more. But those early prints didn't curl even with all this wet time. More recently I discovered that drying screens can be placed over the sink in a way that allows me to continue printing, so I've been trying to stop after every roll to wash, squeegee, place on screen. This is still an hour or so, not 10-15 minutes, and there is no difference in the curl from the 10+ hour soaks. Also, my 10-years-ago printing sessions also involved multiple hours of soaking with flat results (and then I only hang-dried, no squeegee, no screens), and other people (living in different areas) tell me they leave their prints soaking a long time with no ill effects.

They're not wavy/warped looking when dry. There's just a curl that seems pretty slight until you try to hold down the edges...then it fights.

Curious - what direction are they curling? toward the emulsion or away. In other words - like a traditional fiber curl issue or the opposite?

May help diagnose the issue?

RB

naugastyle · Dec 27, 2009

dpurdy said:
When the client came to pick them up they were pretty flat. What happened after he took them home I don't know.

That's the issue. I need to know that they will still be flat when I'm not watching! I love FB and print a lot of it as work prints so I can get a feel for different types, will use it for special framed gifts or if I could put together a show...but if I want to give away prints to friends and family (or strangers I photograph while traveling), I want to give RCs. Not just cheaper, but more practical. Again I'm wondering why lab prints (including ones done in the days before digital printing) never did this.

rwboyer: toward the emulsion. I'll try to show some photos.

naugastyle · Dec 27, 2009

OK, here are some photos. Yes, I know I probably should have cleared some clutter before taking them.

The weight on the mat is not as strong as it would be if pressed against glass in a frame, but again I don't WANT to frame most of these RCs...these should be flat when on their own!

rwboyer · Dec 27, 2009

naugastyle said:
OK, here are some photos. Yes, I know I probably should have cleared some clutter before taking them.

The weight on the mat is not as strong as it would be if pressed against glass in a frame, but again I don't WANT to frame most of these RCs...these should be flat when on their own!

Okay then curling toward the emulsion - how long are they taking to dry to the touch and how fast does the curl appear?

RB

nworth · Dec 27, 2009

The curl your prints have is not really that bad. Not even RC paper lies completely flat all the time. But winter is probably the big contributor. I just got through with a batch of small prints, and I got much the same results. (Locally, the temperature ranges from about -15 to -3C, and the humidity is essentially non-existent.) Some brands and surfaces of paper may be worse than others, and small prints are definitely worse than big ones. Limiting wet time may not be a real option, since you still have to properly process and wash the prints. Using wash water adjusted to 20-25C temperature can help, however. Really cold water requires longer wash times.

naugastyle · Dec 27, 2009

rwboyer: I haven't really timed it. My current workflow (as of 2 weeks ago) is to print all my RCs in the beginning of the session, then printing the FB prints while the RCs screen dry...I'm usually not paying close attention to the drying time of the RCs once I've moved on to printing other stuff. After squeegeeing the RCs, it was fast though, well under 2 hours, maybe even 1 hour. This week when I put the steaming trays of water under the screen it took longer, but not sure how much longer. The prints w/ squeegee showed curl once dry, but was better while still at the darkroom than it was after I got home. This week the prints with steaming water underneath looked mostly flat on the screen the whole time, just slightly lifted corners. The curl didn't seem bad until I came home. This again makes me wonder, if the dryness of my home is so bad that it's curling these prints more, why does that not happen to my lab prints (both optical and Fuji Frontier prints) or my own old RC prints?

nworth: I've started adjusting my water temps as of a couple weeks ago as well, as I thought that might be a problem. The cold water tap is ice cold (especially now) and the hot water tap is painfully hot, my guess is above 130F. Trying to wash/hold at room temp now but no noticeable difference yet.

Granted RC perhaps is not truly board-flat, but here are some samples I did 10 years ago. They were done in Chapel Hill, NC while the current ones are done in NYC--but still, they've been living in the NYC environment for many years now and not stored in any special way. The lifted corners are what I think of as pretty normal. Under the mat, even without any weight, there's no curl at all in comparison to my more recent example.

Now I'm also wondering, does humidity affect the curl of unexposed paper? Looking back at these old prints I see I used to print without borders. Now I'm not sure how I would do that...I generally need the easel to help hold the paper down.

rwboyer · Dec 27, 2009

Personally I think the problem is that water is penetrating the edges of your RC too much but I could be an extreme case of uneven drying between front and back of the print - this shouldn't really happen to RC prints. My guess not having experienced an issue like this at all with RC ever is that if the curl is happening while the print is drying - like partially dry curl = a little bit, more dry more curl (like a fiber print). If the curl is happening after the prints seem dry on the outside then it is a lot of edge penetration (as in the water inside the paper under the RC takes a lot longer to dry than the outside).

RB

Denis R · Dec 28, 2009

puzzled

old mystery kodak glossy RC 8 x 10 and 5 x 7 cut from same 8 x 10 curl 1" at the edges
short side of 5 x 7 and long side of 8 x 10 stick up
curl is toward image, cruled only once drying

new ilford mgiv-rc deluxe pearl 5" x 250 ft after cut through removal from drying screen,
it curls away from image side with center sticking up approx 2"
when in the trays, push down and it comes back up within 10 sec.

wet processing time is less than 10 minutes for both papers

this kinda blows the curves toward the image side issue out of the water

when printing at school on ilford mgiv rc glossy portfolio there was very little curve

all are screen dried

Neal · Dec 28, 2009

Dear naugastyle,

The paper in your photo looks very thin to my eye. If cost is an issue, try Kentmere.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

DramaKing · Dec 29, 2009

Re: curly RC prints

I'd like to see how your prints are in the spring. They might flatten out, but I would expect the curl to be more or less permanent. Try storing your prints in a basement, which might be less dry than the rest of your house.

I just experienced a similar problem. I switched from Ilford Multigrade RC Glossy paper 8x10" to Varycon RC Matte 5x7" in November. The Ilford dries fine, but the Varycon curls like the emulsion experiences shrinking. I thought this might be due, at least in part, to hanging prints to dry with plastic clothespins. If the prints lay flat, gravity might prevent some of the curl. The two things that have seemed to help are shorter hang times and putting weight on them after drying.

Rick A · Dec 29, 2009

You can also steam your prints on the emulsion side. This should help relax them and as an added benefit, will increase gloss.

Rick

PHOTOTONE · Dec 29, 2009

I used to print quantity "press release" photos in my darkroom for one of my clients, 100's of RC 5x7's. I dried them on screens in a forced air dryer, after squeeging them. I got curl-UNTIL-I omitted the hardener component of the Kodak Rapid Fixer I was using. Then the prints came out just right. I noticed no difference winter or summer, although it is very dry in the winter.

naugastyle · Dec 29, 2009

I'm using Ilford Rapid Fix--there's no hardener in that, I believe.

If I dried RC prints face down on a screen (currently I dry them face up) with a weight on the back...how likely would it be that I'd see screen marks on the emulsion? This is hypothetical anyway because I don't have enough weights for the amount of prints I'm usually drying at once, just curious.

I'll try the 15-minute-wet-time this weekend, that seems to be the most immediate solution. I don't have a basement, I'm in an apartment. I decided to leave that 10-year-old flat print from my photos out for a while, to see if it now curls.

I had a Fomatone WT print on my dresser next to the radiator. I've left the already-curly RC prints here before and not seen major differences from when I first brought them home. But this one had practically curled into a tube, when previously it was only curled the same amount as that 1st picture I attached (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Amazing. Stuff like this depresses me...as much as I enjoy FB, I also like RC a lot (certain ones, anyway) and can't afford to ONLY print FBs as I'm mainly doing this for fun and occasional gifts, not for a show at this point.

naugastyle · Dec 29, 2009

Actually, I'll see about the steaming...that's even more immediate because I can try it tonight rather than wait for the weekend. But I imaginge as it dries from the steam it will curl up again.

DramaKing · Dec 29, 2009

PHOTOTONE said:
I used to print quantity "press release" photos in my darkroom for one of my clients, 100's of RC 5x7's. I dried them on screens in a forced air dryer, after squeeging them. I got curl-UNTIL-I omitted the hardener component of the Kodak Rapid Fixer I was using. Then the prints came out just right. I noticed no difference winter or summer, although it is very dry in the winter.

I also use Ilford Rapid Fixer. I do have some Kodak Fixer (standard) for film, which I could use. It would increase wet time, however. As for the squeeging, I usually run my fingers along the paper from each side in the long direction.

naugastyle · Dec 29, 2009

Oh, and just so you can see I'm not exaggerating about the print left on my dresser...

Rick A · Dec 31, 2009

Curls generally caused by one side drying faster than the other. It may be that the RC coating on the back of this batch of paper might be thinner than the front, or non-existant,alowing for more moisture penetration on that side.It could be that you are over washing your prints-too much time in bath would account for penetration of water into the backing layer. Possible cure is to layer finished prints in a blotter book and weight while you wait(intentional) for them to dry. I layer mine between sheets of paper toweling and place under a large tome for a few days(after they are 'dry').

Rick

naugastyle · Dec 31, 2009

Paper towels don't stick to the emulsion? What I would like is some sort of stiffer separator. Currently I'm sticking them (when completely dry) on top of the unused pages in the back of an overstuffed old magnetic photo album, which is already heavy as is, then stacking more albums on top.

Anyway, after giving it a few days, I'm coming to the conclusion that PERHAPS it is temporary. I put them under weights for longer than I usually do (about a week this time) and the difference was there. They still curl when not pressed, but if I hold down the corners the center is flatter than it was previously.

In addition, I decided to leave that 10-year-old extremely flat print that I showed in the photo above out in the general heat/dryness of my apartment instead of putting it back in the under-bed box. And whaddya know--it actually is starting to curl a bit. And what I said about digital Fuji Frontier prints not curling? Hmm, well, they weren't previously...until I checked again the other day. The few I don't have already in albums definitely show a bit of curl. It's harder to tell because they are 4x6s and the paper is thinner than the Foma Variant III, probably the same reasons I didn't see as much curl from the 4x6s I cut from MCP. So if flatness can apparently be reversed, perhaps the curl can be as well.

rwboyer · Jan 1, 2010

naugastyle said:
Oh, and just so you can see I'm not exaggerating about the print left on my dresser...

After having printed RC and FB papers of all types for 25 years - this degree of curl from RC is totally forked up. I may be the only one that does not experience this with RC on this thread but I know that I am not the minority in my experience with RC. The whole point of using RC is so that the handling is easy and less critical - faster fix/faster wash/faster dry - done real quick with no fuss.

The point of RC is to prevent the paper base from getting wet and causing all sorts of extra care and work to deal with it. This is a ridiculous situation IMO. If I were you I would get a really small batch of paper that others have NO issue with and process it along side what you are using now to determine if it really is your truly exceptional processing environment or the paper you are using.

Having said all that try slowing the drying down - this is easy. Just dry a print in a much more contained environment like a big plastic back with a couple holes poked in it. or a tupperware with the lid cracked or something.

RB

rwboyer · Jan 1, 2010

Here is how ALL of the RC turns out ever since I have been using RC for proofs and work prints.

This particular one was processed in a batch of other crappy RC with no particular care and dried with no fuss face up wherever I had room to lay it around. Most likely I jammed it in a tray of water to wait with a bunch of other stuff for final wash - don't exactly remember because I had too much wine. Did it a few days ago with the temp was below freezing and not too humid. My house is forced hot air heat and so dry that the back of my arms are more like alligator skin than human skin in the winter time.

As I mentioned I have never thought of RC as particularly or even remotely sensitive to environmental conditions in terms of drying.

RB

Ps. the curl you see is the exact same curl that came out of the box - very very slight - less than 1/16" at the edge. No ripples - no fuss. The whole point of RC paper. I swear if this was happening to me I would box up a print and send it back with a note that said "WTF ???"

Pss. That is 11x14 paper. Don't ask - I happen to have accidentally ordered a box of 11x14 RC and I am "using it up" I am too lazy to cut it.

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