Problems focusing 200mm with Bronica S2a?

TheTrailTog · Sep 2, 2016

I recently picked up a mint Bronica S2a with a 100mm f/2.8 Zenzanon and added a 50mm f/3.5 Nikkor and 200mm f/4 Nikkor. I've read that these cameras have an issue focusing to infinity due to deteriorated padding for the focusing screen. Mine seems okay and I can focus perfectly fine with the 50 and 100, but for some reason can only focus out to about 20' with the 200mm. It almost feels like it's bottoming out in the mount. It was my understanding that the standard helical mount works with lenses up to 200mm. Any ideas what the issue could be?

Alan Gales · Sep 2, 2016

The Bronica S2a's are great cameras. I've read that they couldn't focus on infinity with the 75mm lenses straight out of the factory though. I also read that Nikkor got a bad rap for being soft when it was due to the camera and not the lenses. Fix the focussing issue and they are fine though.

The Nikkor 200mm should focus at infinity. For close focussing the lenses did come with a close-up filter.

I would replace your focussing screen padding. It is an easy fix to replace it with moleskin. There are articles on the internet that tell you how.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/142186376/The-Bronica-Focus-Problem

TheTrailTog · Sep 2, 2016

Hi Alan,

Thank you for your input. I'll check the padding, but I don't think that is the issue. The 50 and 100 focus perfectly out to infinity. The problem is that the 200 won't physically retract into the helicoid enough to focus to infinity. I'll see if I can get some pics of the issue tonight to illustrate what I mean.

frank · Sep 2, 2016

Xia_Ke said:
It was my understanding that the standard helical mount works with lenses up to 200mm.

I don't know, but perhaps this is not so?

Alan Gales · Sep 2, 2016

frank said:
I don't know, but perhaps this is not so?

Frank, with the 400mm, 600mm, 800mm and 1200mm Tele-Nikkors you had to remove the helical ring to use them. According to what I have read they used a separate focus module of some sort. I've never seen a longer lens than the 200mm and the 200mm is supposed to work with the normal helical focussing ring.

The only thing I can think of is that the focussing screen is off a bit.

frank · Sep 2, 2016

I had an S2a before the one I have now, that I replaced the screen foam on to ensure it's pressed up against the frame. Not too difficult.

Alan Gales · Sep 2, 2016

frank said:
I had an S2a before the one I have now, that I replaced the screen foam on to ensure it's pressed up against the frame. Not too difficult.

Yeah, it's easy to replace. I had an S2a once. I bought it to see if I liked it but preferred my EC's so I sold it. I don't know that one is better than the other but I was used to the EC's. I had the 40mm, 75mm and 135mm Nikkors and a 150mm Bronica lens. Besides being loud the only real negative I found was their age.

moto-uno · Sep 2, 2016

^ Loud , that's an understatement for sure , mine could raise the dead ! Still it was fun to use
and absolutely everyone remarked on it . Peter

TheTrailTog · Sep 2, 2016

Loud? Having never experienced one before getting it, I was half expecting a thunder clap by the way everyone talks about it...lol Leica/Rolleiflex quiet it is not, but the mirror slap doesn't bother me at all.

Here are some pics of the 3 lenses focused to infinity. As you can see, the 100 and 50 focus right out to infinity on the scale (and show properly on the ground glass), while the 200 only focuses out to ~3' on the scale and ~20' through the viewfinder. Someone suggested that the lens may have been serviced/disassembled and not put back together correctly, but I can find no signs of the screws being undone.

50mm:

100mm:

200mm

Alan Gales · Sep 2, 2016

Something isn't right.

I'd look for another 200mm lens on Ebay. They go pretty cheap now.

TheTrailTog · Sep 2, 2016

Yes they do. It's not a focal length I would typically buy, but because of the price I decided why not try it out.

StephenT · Sep 2, 2016

Have you checked to be sure the rear element shroud is not hitting the mirror? I have an S2a but it is at another location, and I do remember reading something about being careful about some lenses and interference with the mirror. Sorry I can't be more helpful at the present - I do have a 200 with it and haven't had an issue, so it might well be something with the lens. Just check that mirror box before you buy another 200.

I love my S2a's and my EC - great pieces of machinery/art/tools/toys!

John Koehrer · Sep 3, 2016

Worked on by someone that knew what they were doing there shouldn't be signs
of it being worked on. It's remarkable what proper sized screwdrivers can do for
a craftsman.
Anyway: With that kind of difference I'd suspect improper assembly too.

TheTrailTog · Sep 5, 2016

Stephen, I don't think it is an issue with it bottoming out with the mirror. It just "stops" in the helicoid.

John, yes, the right tools can make all the difference. Just seems to me that if someone took enough time and care to take it apart without leaving a mark they would have paid enough attention to detail when reassembling it.

Oh well, seems I can still use it out to about 20' which is fine considering I bought it to experiment with some portraiture.

N4646W · Sep 9, 2016

The 200mm and up have their own focusing. You have to remove the standard focusing ring from the camera and use a "fix" ring. This ring is deeper than the standard focusing ring. From the pictures you posted, you mounted the lens directly to the camera without the ring. Actually, I never knew you could do that.

If you move the focusing ring on the lens, please do this off the camera, you will see that it extends much further than your other lenses, thus the extended fixed ring.

As far as the lenses being soft, none of mine are, and I would love to be able to adapt them to my DSLR's.

Ron

TheTrailTog · Sep 9, 2016

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your input. Where did you see about the 200mm requiring a separate helicoid? The S2a manual says that the 105mm with built-in leaf shutter and all lenses >300mm require a separate focusing mount. All others use the standard mount. The manual even provides a focusing table for converting the distance scale from the standard 75mm scale to any lens from from the 40mm to the 200mm (except the 105mm leaf shutter).

http://www.cameramanuals.org/bronica/bronica-s2a.pdf

Sorry, my experience with the system is very limited so far and everything I have read points to an issue with the lens itself.

cooltouch · Sep 10, 2016

This is definitely a mechanical issue of some sort. Probably a clearance problem. Have you tried dismounting the focusing helical from the camera, then installing the lens on the helical? After doing this, I would closely inspect the two pieces as a unit to find out where the interference is happening. It might be something really minor, like a loose screw protruding too far, etc.

N4646W · Sep 15, 2016

Xia_Ke said:
Hi Ron,

Thanks for your input. Where did you see about the 200mm requiring a separate helicoid? The S2a manual says that the 105mm with built-in leaf shutter and all lenses >300mm require a separate focusing mount. All others use the standard mount. The manual even provides a focusing table for converting the distance scale from the standard 75mm scale to any lens from from the 40mm to the 200mm (except the 105mm leaf shutter).

http://www.cameramanuals.org/bronica/bronica-s2a.pdf

Sorry, my experience with the system is very limited so far and everything I have read points to an issue with the lens itself.

Sorry taking so long to get back to you. If your lens has a focusing ring built into the lens, the normal focusing ring on the camera has to be replaced with a non focusing ring. It is deeper and allows the lens to focus back into the camera. The lenses with a built in focus, will extend significantly further back into the camera, causing blockage, and I was told, but unverified as I never tried it, that you can actually damage the mirror if you force it to focus. So, if your lens has a built in focus ring, (as your pictures show it does ) you need to get the "non focus" ring to replace the standard focusing ring. It is a simple ring but is deeper than the standard focusing ring, allowing you to use the full range of the lenses. I have the 200, 400, and 600 lenses but so far only two rings which I keep with the cameras of which I have several. All of the nikor lenses were tack sharp at all ranges, so you will definitely enjoy you lens, infact, I don't ever recall any complaints of any of my MF nikor lenses as I have found with some of the newer consumer DSLR lenses. "But" you do have to shop and try when you get these older lenses as there are some out there that have been shall we say "used and abused". Use your flip up magnifier, mount the camera solidly and run through the range very slowly on a focus chart or some fixed horizontal and vertical objects in the store to see if there is distortion any where in the range. If the dealer baulks at this, you do not want that lens.

I assume you do not have the fixed ring, so you might try Sammy's Camera for one. I think I have seen them on B&H also.

Ron

frank · Sep 15, 2016

N4646W said:
Sorry taking so long to get back to you. If your lens has a focusing ring built into the lens, the normal focusing ring on the camera has to be replaced with a non focusing ring. It is deeper and allows the lens to focus back into the camera. The lenses with a built in focus, will extend significantly further back into the camera, causing blockage, and I was told, but unverified as I never tried it, that you can actually damage the mirror if you force it to focus. So, if your lens has a built in focus ring, (as your pictures show it does ) you need to get the "non focus" ring to replace the standard focusing ring. It is a simple ring but is deeper than the standard focusing ring, allowing you to use the full range of the lenses. I have the 200, 400, and 600 lenses but so far only two rings which I keep with the cameras of which I have several. All of the nikor lenses were tack sharp at all ranges, so you will definitely enjoy you lens, infact, I don't ever recall any complaints of any of my MF nikor lenses as I have found with some of the newer consumer DSLR lenses. "But" you do have to shop and try when you get these older lenses as there are some out there that have been shall we say "used and abused". Use your flip up magnifier, mount the camera solidly and run through the range very slowly on a focus chart or some fixed horizontal and vertical objects in the store to see if there is distortion any where in the range. If the dealer baulks at this, you do not want that lens.

I assume you do not have the fixed ring, so you might try Sammy's Camera for one. I think I have seen them on B&H also.

Ron

This sounds like the answer to me.

TheTrailTog · Sep 15, 2016

Hmmm, still sticking with an issue with the lens. Possibly reassembled incorrectly? Or wrong mount collar? I double checked it tonight. It definitely does not have an independent focusing scale. It is the same 200mm f/4 listed in the Bronica brochures and meant to work with this helicoid mount. All the pics from before are my 3 lenses in the same helicoid mount. Tonight I pulled the helicoid mount out from the body and focused the 3 lenses outside of the camera. It is the same issue. The 200mm is definitely not hitting the mirror, a stray screw, or anything else. I checked the focusing range and it appears to go from about 8' to about 25'. Bronica lists the minimum focus distance as 10.8'. Perhaps the 200 is missing a shim of sort when it was reassembled? Again, the 50mm and 100mm focus perfectly from each lens' (lens's?) stated minimum focus distance through infinity and what I see through the ground glass matches up with the distance scale, so no way it could be the usual S2a focusing issue. Curiosity has me wanting to figure out what the issue is, but truth be told, I bought it for like $50 for headshots/portraiture and it works fine in that focus range, so still happy with my purchase.

N4646W · Sep 15, 2016

Xia_Ke said:
Hmmm, still sticking with an issue with the lens. Possibly reassembled incorrectly? Or wrong mount collar? I double checked it tonight. It definitely does not have an independent focusing scale. It is the same 200mm f/4 listed in the Bronica brochures and meant to work with this helicoid mount. All the pics from before are my 3 lenses in the same helicoid mount. Tonight I pulled the helicoid mount out from the body and focused the 3 lenses outside of the camera. It is the same issue. The 200mm is definitely not hitting the mirror, a stray screw, or anything else. I checked the focusing range and it appears to go from about 8' to about 25'. Bronica lists the minimum focus distance as 10.8'. Perhaps the 200 is missing a shim of sort when it was reassembled? Again, the 50mm and 100mm focus perfectly from each lens' (lens's?) stated minimum focus distance through infinity and what I see through the ground glass matches up with the distance scale, so no way it could be the usual S2a focusing issue. Curiosity has me wanting to figure out what the issue is, but truth be told, I bought it for like $50 for headshots/portraiture and it works fine in that focus range, so still happy with my purchase.

Boy, had to do some digging to get my equipment out of storage. So to my surprise, I have two different 200mm lenses. One will fit the standard focusing ring, the other takes the fixed ring. Lenses do not even resemble each other. One has to be an earlier version, both are Nikor, but one is labeled Nikor/Bronica. They both focus to under 10 feet, but the one that uses the fixed ring will focus to about six feet, maybe a little closer. So, I guess you do have a problem with the lens. I have no idea what it could be, but I'd be interested to know what you find out. They are built like tanks, so it sounds like some one tinkered with it or something came lose. Hard to imagine something coming lose, as mine spent a lot of their time on the floor board of my truck up in the mountains and still function.

Ron

TheTrailTog · Sep 15, 2016

If it helps, here are some pics of my 200mm. The only damage I can find to the lens is you can see some bright marks by the edge of the rear element. This was there when I got the lens and is not from it rubbing in my helicoid or camera body.

N4646W · Sep 16, 2016

Xia_Ke said:
If it helps, here are some pics of my 200mm. The only damage I can find to the lens is you can see some bright marks by the edge of the rear element. This was there when I got the lens and is not from it rubbing in my helicoid or camera body.

If I get a chance tonight I will stop by and dig my stuff out again. Your lens looks totally different than mine from the pictures. That said, the marks look as though the back end of the lens housing was impacted. If it was severe enough, it "could ?" have caused a distortion some where so there is an internal bind or misalignment?

Ron

N4646W · Sep 17, 2016

Xia_Ke said:
If it helps, here are some pics of my 200mm. The only damage I can find to the lens is you can see some bright marks by the edge of the rear element. This was there when I got the lens and is not from it rubbing in my helicoid or camera body.

Wow! Did not realize how much I had acquired over the years. Any way, I found a 200mm lens that looked like yours, but the serial # is in the upper 600K series. It is an F4 and will focus from infinity to 2.5 ft. and close down to F 32. I ran it through it's full turns on some spare focusing rings (this was interesting, as externally they all looked the same, but internally they all had subtle differences) and it worked just fine. You could definitely feel it come to a definite stop at both ends of it's range.

Have you checked the locking lugs to see if one of them is burred or deformed? It is possible if one is off, you will get a feeling that the lens is locked on. I had a 35mm lens I picked up that had this problem. With a jewelers file I was able to salvage a tele that I picked up for a dollar. There is also a tab in the focusing mech that you can watch as it travels from stop to stop.

Ron

RichardJack · Sep 18, 2016

Hi,
Have you got it working? I've been following this and seeing so much incorrect information. Your lens should work if your other lenses do unless the lens is damaged (elements that shifted). Here is a list of serial numbers for Bronica Nikkor lenses:
http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/serialno.html#Bronica (to find your version)
Here is a complete list of all lenses made to fit the older Bronica cameras.
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Bronica_lenses
All 3- 200mm Nikkor versions used the focusing collar. I'm not sure about the Bronica Auto Zenzanon 200mm f3.5 version (rare). The older 2.5cm(250mm) version and lenses over 300mm had their own focusing.
If you don't already own a copy of Tony Hilton's "Bronica: The Early History and Definitive Collector's Guide" pick one up, it's loaded with very useful info, tables and photos. Get one.
https://www.amazon.com/Bronica-Early-History-Definitive-Collectors/dp/1874031398 (I can't believe how expensive these got, I paid $10).
I've owned Bronica cameras since the early 1970's. I presently have a S2A, EC-TL, SQ-A, and GS-1. Well over 20 lenses for all systems.
If you still have a problem let us know.
regards,
Rick

Problems focusing 200mm with Bronica S2a?

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