Problems Digitizing Slides

dmeig · Mar 28, 2020

I’m new to this and recently started trying to digitize my old slides. I am using a Nikon D750 with 60mm f/2.8 macro lens on an old Testrite copy stand I had. The slides are mounted in my Epson 750 multi-slide holder and are illuminated upon a Kaiser Slimlite backlite. Focus and exposure are set manually for ISO 200 and shutter is released with mirror lockup by a remote control. WB is set to 5000K. Exposures are saved in RAW + JPEG.

I have been rather disappointed in my results so far with respect to the amount of post adjustment necessary to obtain a good color-balanced, decent contrast final image. I have tried opening and adjusting the RAW files in Photoshop Elements Adobe Camera Raw, and DxO Photolab and also tried just working with the JPEGS in PSE. The results are always about the same, i.e. quite a bit of adjustment needed. I notice the images duplicated all are too blue and always need a lot of white balance, exposure and color adjustments. Is this normal or am I missing something I should be doing. Making sharp duplicates is quick, making the adjustments will take forever to get decent digital repros from my slides.

Your help is appreciated.

Adrian Bacon · Mar 28, 2020

dmeig said:
I’m new to this and recently started trying to digitize my old slides. I am using a Nikon D750 with 60mm f/2.8 macro lens on an old Testrite copy stand I had. The slides are mounted in my Epson 750 multi-slide holder and are illuminated upon a Kaiser Slimlite backlite. Focus and exposure are set manually for ISO 200 and shutter is released with mirror lockup by a remote control. WB is set to 5000K. Exposures are saved in RAW + JPEG.

I have been rather disappointed in my results so far with respect to the amount of post adjustment necessary to obtain a good color-balanced, decent contrast final image. I have tried opening and adjusting the RAW files in Photoshop Elements Adobe Camera Raw, and DxO Photolab and also tried just working with the JPEGS in PSE. The results are always about the same, i.e. quite a bit of adjustment needed. I notice the images duplicated all are too blue and always need a lot of white balance, exposure and color adjustments. Is this normal or am I missing something I should be doing. Making sharp duplicates is quick, making the adjustments will take forever to get decent digital repros from my slides.

Your help is appreciated.

Use the custom white balance of your camera and white balance just the light source. Most light sources are 6500K or more, so setting your WB to 5000K is part of why it's so blue. If you white balance for the light source without any slides, then you'll get much better results. Also, in Adobe Camera Raw, it's helpful to set the black level to +25 and the Contrast slider to -33 as this will give you a generally linear image, which should will allow the high contrast slide come through mostly as you'd see it if it were projected on a white wall.

To set the white balance for just the light source, set the ISO to the ISO you intend to shoot with, the shutter at the shutter speed you intend to shoot with, then set the aperture to so that the light source is middle grey to a little above middle grey. You want to be careful not to clip any of the channels to white as it will throw off the custom white balance. From there, take a frame of the light source and use that frame to set the custom white balance in the camera. From there, just use that custom white balance when shooting each slide frame.

If you want to shoot jpegs, use the most neutral picture style/picture profile your camera has and if possible, adjust it so that it has as little contrast as possible. I'm not familiar with Nikon cameras, but I'd imagine you can do that like you can on Canon cameras.

shutterfinger · Mar 28, 2020

I found Nikon Capture NX-D to be superior to ADC for converting Nikon's camera raw files (NEF).
https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/175/D750.html
Nikonusa.com > support > Download center

dmeig · Mar 28, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
Use the custom white balance of your camera and white balance just the light source. Most light sources are 6500K or more, so setting your WB to 5000K is part of why it's so blue. If you white balance for the light source without any slides, then you'll get much better results. Also, in Adobe Camera Raw, it's helpful to set the black level to +25 and the Contrast slider to -33 as this will give you a generally linear image, which should will allow the high contrast slide come through mostly as you'd see it if it were projected on a white wall.

To set the white balance for just the light source, set the ISO to the ISO you intend to shoot with, the shutter at the shutter speed you intend to shoot with, then set the aperture to so that the light source is middle grey to a little above middle grey. You want to be careful not to clip any of the channels to white as it will throw off the custom white balance. From there, take a frame of the light source and use that frame to set the custom white balance in the camera. From there, just use that custom white balance when shooting each slide frame.

If you want to shoot jpegs, use the most neutral picture style/picture profile your camera has and if possible, adjust it so that it has as little contrast as possible. I'm not familiar with Nikon cameras, but I'd imagine you can do that like you can on Canon cameras.

Adrian, thank you for your suggestions. While setting up and testing I did at first use a WB set by photographing my light source. Didn't seem to change things much, but perhaps I made a mistake and I will try again. Thanks for the notes on other settings.

dmeig · Mar 28, 2020

shutterfinger said:
I found Nikon Capture NX-D to be superior to ADC for converting Nikon's camera raw files (NEF).
https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/175/D750.html
Nikonusa.com > support > Download center

Thank you. perhaps as I feel my way along this process I will try Capture NX-D.

Adrian Bacon · Mar 28, 2020

dmeig said:
Adrian, thank you for your suggestions. While setting up and testing I did at first use a WB set by photographing my light source. Didn't seem to change things much, but perhaps I made a mistake and I will try again. Thanks for the notes on other settings.

You're welcome. I scan a lot film using a similar setup, so feel free to ask questions. I'll answer what I can, though I'm primarily a Canon user, so if you're using Nikon, I won't be much help outside of generic camera settings.

jtk · Apr 2, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
Use the custom white balance of your camera and white balance just the light source. Most light sources are 6500K or more, so setting your WB to 5000K is part of why it's so blue. If you white balance for the light source without any slides, then you'll get much better results. Also, in Adobe Camera Raw, it's helpful to set the black level to +25 and the Contrast slider to -33 as this will give you a generally linear image, which should will allow the high contrast slide come through mostly as you'd see it if it were projected on a white wall.

To set the white balance for just the light source, set the ISO to the ISO you intend to shoot with, the shutter at the shutter speed you intend to shoot with, then set the aperture to so that the light source is middle grey to a little above middle grey. You want to be careful not to clip any of the channels to white as it will throw off the custom white balance. From there, take a frame of the light source and use that frame to set the custom white balance in the camera. From there, just use that custom white balance when shooting each slide frame.

If you want to shoot jpegs, use the most neutral picture style/picture profile your camera has and if possible, adjust it so that it has as little contrast as possible. I'm not familiar with Nikon cameras, but I'd imagine you can do that like you can on Canon cameras.

"Daylight" is 5200k. If you mistakenly think something else you're working against reality. The difference between 5200 and purported 5000 is trivial IMO.

Focusing manually, which is a good idea, makes flash awkward which is why studio strobes have modeling lights.

Most purported "daylight" LED are allegedly 5000k, which is close enough to 5200 for jazz. For critical work the challenge isn't that 200k difference, it's the "chopped spectrum"...same reality as with most nominally "daylight" fluorescent.

For critical color the options are strobes, Macbeth light boxes and actual mid morning daylight.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 2, 2020

jtk said:
"Daylight" is 5200k. If you mistakenly think something else you're working against reality. The difference between 5200 and purported 5000 is trivial IMO.

5000K and 6500K are the white points of most digital color spaces (except ACES which is 6000K). 5000K also happens to be the color temperature at which you’re supposed to have critical viewing of prints at. Daylight doesn’t really have anything to do with that, those color temperatures are just so the various color spaces have a reference that they can use to make white look white to your eyes without a funky color cast.

ced · Apr 2, 2020

Why not try auto white balance from your camera?

Billy Axeman · Apr 2, 2020

The camera is mounted on a copy stand, with an open space between the camera and the slide holder. WB problems appear when light from the backlight panel is mixed with light from the environment. You should switch off the lighting in the room and prevent daylight entering the room, and set WB to Auto.

Stray light from the environment also introduces flare, with a reduction of contrast.

To prevent these two problems a better setup is to mount the camera and the slide holder on a rail with a bellows in between. To keep the rail short use a shorter macro lens (50mm or shorter).

Edit: Also check if light from the backlight panel around the outside of the slide holder isn't reflected off the ceiling onto the film. It that's the case cover it with a piece of cardboard.

jtk · Apr 2, 2020

Billy Axeman said:
The camera is mounted on a copy stand, with an open space between the camera and the slide holder. WB problems appear when light from the backlight panel is mixed with light from the environment. You should switch off the lighting in the room and prevent daylight entering the room, and set WB to Auto.

Stray light from the environment also introduces flare, with a reduction of contrast.

To prevent these two problems a better setup is to mount the camera and the slide holder on a rail with a bellows in between. To keep the rail short use a shorter macro lens (50mm or shorter).

Working in a darkened room is important...shoot vertically (camera facing down), Horizontal adds unnecessary complexity. Vertical is nice with flip-out screen,. I have a halogen desk lamp next to my setup in order to precisely confirm positioning of slide mounts, turning it off for exposure. I use two Omega D2 enlarger negative holders, one of them filed out to reveal black outline (traditional modification of Omega and Beseler neg holders)..., the other a standard item from Omega that positions mounted slides nicely.. Those carriers are fairly heavy so hold film flat.

Much of the chatter about white balance and camera brands is a distraction if one is working with a proper daylight light source... if your original slides are properly exposed etc they will all copy within a half stop (or thereabouts) and will of course all call for the same white balance (which would be daylight if one was using a proper light source....that's assuming you want your copy to replicate the original as much as possible, which may not be the case if you, like me, think of slides as steps on the way to prints. .

dmeig · Apr 2, 2020

Billy Axeman said:
The camera is mounted on a copy stand, with an open space between the camera and the slide holder. WB problems appear when light from the backlight panel is mixed with light from the environment. You should switch off the lighting in the room and prevent daylight entering the room, and set WB to Auto.

Stray light from the environment also introduces flare, with a reduction of contrast.

To prevent these two problems a better setup is to mount the camera and the slide holder on a rail with a bellows in between. To keep the rail short use a shorter macro lens (50mm or shorter).

Edit: Also check if light from the backlight panel around the outside of the slide holder isn't reflected off the ceiling onto the film. It that's the case cover it with a piece of cardboard.

Billy,
Yes, I will try switching off the room light. Thought of that earlier but it slipped my mind. Thank you.

4season · Apr 3, 2020

Wish I could find the message, but someone recently posted a very interesting comment about the challenges of scanning C41 color negatives using light sources which aren't continuous-spectrum types (e.g., fluorescent, LED), and the suggestion was to try using light from xenon flash diffused through media expressly designed as photo diffusion media.

Alternately, if you have an Epson Perfection 750, have you tried simply using Epson Scan and avoiding any multi-pass options? Multi-pass scans on my Perfection 700 don't register very accurately, resulting in images which are much softer than if I just do a single-pass scan.

Adrian Bacon · Apr 3, 2020

4season said:
Wish I could find the message, but someone recently posted a very interesting comment about the challenges of scanning C41 color negatives using light sources which aren't continuous-spectrum types (e.g., fluorescent, LED), and the suggestion was to try using light from xenon flash diffused through media expressly designed as photo diffusion media.

Alternately, if you have an Epson Perfection 750, have you tried simply using Epson Scan and avoiding any multi-pass options? Multi-pass scans on my Perfection 700 don't register very accurately, resulting in images which are much softer than if I just do a single-pass scan.

that was probably me who said that. There seems to be a fair amount of resistance to doing that amongst the goers here, but in my experience, it just isn’t that difficult to fire a manual speed light into a repurposed light panel. You do need a couple bits and pieces, to trigger it from your camera, but other than that, bang for the buck, it’s pretty hard to go wrong.

dmeig · Apr 3, 2020

4season said:
Wish I could find the message, but someone recently posted a very interesting comment about the challenges of scanning C41 color negatives using light sources which aren't continuous-spectrum types (e.g., fluorescent, LED), and the suggestion was to try using light from xenon flash diffused through media expressly designed as photo diffusion media.

Alternately, if you have an Epson Perfection 750, have you tried simply using Epson Scan and avoiding any multi-pass options? Multi-pass scans on my Perfection 700 don't register very accurately, resulting in images which are much softer than if I just do a single-pass scan.

4season thank you for your suggestion. Yes, I did do a comparison scan of the same slides on my V750 Pro. I don't know if they were single or multi pass and will have to repeat to check. The results in terms of color and contrast were not very different from my DSLR shots. I found the resolution just slightly softer with the scanner images when blowing them way up.

4season · Apr 3, 2020

dmeig said:
4season thank you for your suggestion. Yes, I did do a comparison scan of the same slides on my V750 Pro. ... The results in terms of color and contrast were not very different from my DSLR shots.

Now that is a surprise to me because IME Epson Scan generally does a very good job of dealing with the orange mask, provided that a strip of the glass scanning surface isn't blocked when using non-Epson film holders.

jtk · Apr 3, 2020

jtk said:
"Daylight" is 5200k. If you mistakenly think something else you're working against reality. The difference between 5200 and purported 5000 is trivial IMO.

Focusing manually, which is a good idea, makes flash awkward which is why studio strobes have modeling lights.

Most purported "daylight" LED are allegedly 5000k, which is close enough to 5200 for jazz. For critical work the challenge isn't that 200k difference, it's the "chopped spectrum"...same reality as with most nominally "daylight" fluorescent.

For critical color the options are strobes, Macbeth light boxes and actual mid morning daylight.

The chopped spectrum often allows good copies however when the work is critical, as with skin tones and a variety of other phenomena, LEDs and fluorescent (other than Macbeth et al) aren't good enough (for me) ... the chopped spectrum can lead to results similar to crossed-over film processing and/or seriously outdated slide film.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 3, 2020

dmeig said:
4season thank you for your suggestion. Yes, I did do a comparison scan of the same slides on my V750 Pro. I don't know if they were single or multi pass and will have to repeat to check. The results in terms of color and contrast were not very different from my DSLR shots. I found the resolution just slightly softer with the scanner images when blowing them way up.

What scan software did you use when you used the scanner? What were the settings?

dmeig · Apr 3, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
What scan software did you use when you used the scanner? What were the settings?

Alan, I used Epson Scan. Professional Mode. I am not a great experimenter and didn't record my settings. From memory...Doc Type: Film with Film Holder; Film Type: Positive; Image Type: 24-bit color; Resolution: 2400; Adjustments - I don't think any were set. I have not yet tried to do my film negatives, either B&W or color. I thought it would be easier learning how to do the slides first. hasn't been so easy.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 3, 2020

It might be helpful to post scans of the same photo using both methods so we can see what you're referring too.

Billy Axeman · Apr 4, 2020

dmeig said:
.... I have not yet tried to do my film negatives, either B&W or color. I thought it would be easier learning how to do the slides first. hasn't been so easy.

I have good results with the Slimline backlight panel for B&W film, it doesn't introduce a color cast when the room is dark and WB is set to Auto.

What you can do, when you can choose between color and B&W, first scan B&W to get the WB right and then do the slides to check what the Slimline backlight panel is doing, because it has a discontinuous spectrum.

I am not scanning color myself, but I bet de slides are Ok when the B&W is good, because the latter is also scanned as color, the only difference is that the RGB channels have the same value.

Dusty Negative · Apr 4, 2020

This seems almost beneath the elevated level of discussion here, but curious if anyone uses the following software to streamline this process:

https://www.negativelabpro.com/

jtk · Apr 4, 2020

Dusty Negative said:
This seems almost beneath the elevated level of discussion here, but curious if anyone uses the following software to streamline this process:

https://www.negativelabpro.com/

This thread began by adding all sorts of complexity to a profoundly simple task. Has nothing to do with Nikon Vs Canon. Assuming you've set whatever camera for auto white balance and assuming you're shooting MANUAL, all you have to do is confirm exposure...which is easy with digital cameras.

Dusty Negative · Apr 4, 2020

jtk said:
This thread began by adding all sorts of complexity to a profoundly simple task.

Couldn’t agree more. Once you’ve mastered it, it becomes profoundly simple. It’s that whole beginning and middle part that keeps throwing me off, when I am mimicking but not understanding, and hence completely lost once a previously unseen variable crops up.

What I am hearing is: have one and only one light source, and make a custom white balance (or AWB) from that source. All else should fall into place.

MattKing · Apr 4, 2020

Dusty Negative said:
This seems almost beneath the elevated level of discussion here, but curious if anyone uses the following software to streamline this process:

https://www.negativelabpro.com/

Lots of reading for you
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...c-41-reversal-and-orange-mask-removal.166696/
Lots of us have no desire to subscribe to Adobe for Photoshop.

Problems Digitizing Slides

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