Problem with stains appearing on my prints. :(

Excuse this long question...

I am having a problem with my b/w prints, where taking them from the fixer, within a few seconds a stain appears mostly around the edges. I have attached pictures of three prints to explain.

Print AAA, is what first happened to a Jessop's 7" x 5" RC paper print = a grey veil over all the print, including the borders, after removing it from the fixer. If I remember correctly, it happened to prints with and without the white light on, so I'm presuming something is happening when the prints are exposed to air after the fixer? I immediately thought that the fixer was exhausted, fogging the print, but that shouldn't happen in the dark!? I did a fixer exhaustion test anyway and I was correct at it being past its best, despite me being quite strict with how many prints go through it before replacing. It should have been still of a working condition. Just to be safe, I emptied and cleaned out all three slots of my Nova processor and refilled with fresh chemicals.

Print BBB, is what happened next = instead of the grey veil, an orange brown stain all around the borders appeared. The borders are 1/2" wide, and the stains don't go into the print. There still seems to be a light grey veil over the exposed part of the paper, but part of the borders that aren't stained have remained white. The stain itself is about 8mm wide from the edge (sorry about the use of two sizing ways but it's the only way I can think of doing it).

For print CCC, I decided to change paper from Jessops to a fresh box of Kentmere 10" x 8". The chemicals were all fresh, as above and I double checked the fixer with a test, just to make sure, as it was the last from the bottle. It checked out fine after three tests that I did to really confirm to myself that the fixer was okay.

This print, again when lifted out of the fixer, produced a wider coloured border, with the stain noticeable in the top part of the print as well, where a blank sky should be, although this doesn't show well on the attached print, but it is definitely there. This time it is purplish, with a yellow tone in parts of it. I have just done another fixer test, the day after the printing session, and the test comes back clear, so the fixer is fine.

Note that the Kentmere paper is a freshly opened box, about a year old, whilst the Jessops is somewhat older, but both have been stored well. The Jessops and all my other papers have been fine over the years and this is the first time this has happened to me and I am at a total loss.

I'm presuming I will have to reprint any prints that are stained, unless there is some easy answer to get rid of the stains?

I'm under the weather with a bad cold bug at the moment, so it will probably at least a few more days before I can get back into the darkroom, to try out some of the other papers that I have, by putting them through the chemicals to see if they all react as well.

So, does anyone know what is causing these stains and out of interest what is actually happening chemically as well?

All suggestions are most welcome, as I can't do anymore printing until I sort it out.

Terry S

Have you tried processing in a tray to rule out your Nova?

What developer are you using? How's your tap water? Did this issue just suddenly start happening?

Looks like a fixing problem to me, likely either bad fix, or inadequate fixing time, or contaminated fix, or some combination.

Are you using an acid stop bath? How long are you fixing? What is your fixer test procedure?

Given that you are using a Nova, it might be a problem with locally exhausted fixer. You need to ensure that the fixer is moving over the entire print.

How about your water supply? Have you tried distilled water instead of tap water?

Have you used this setup, or any other, with your current water supply and had good results?

Fixer problem

I don't wish to sound argumentative or curmudgeonly but the OP has already said that he (a) cleaned out his Nova and filled with fresh chemicals (b) he changed from old Jessops paper to new Kentmere paper and (c) did 3 tests on his fixer which were OK .

So do I have answer? No, but I am presuming that it cannot rest on anything which stems from his Nova, chemicals, paper or fixer, based on what he has said.

So can there be anything else which can be reconciled with a,b, and c above that might be causing the issue?

I cannot think of anything other than having the thought that there is something wrong with some part of his process/materials which is not as sound as he thinks.

The strange thing is that each print, I think, only has the problem in the borders although each print's borders seem to exhibit a different problem.

Normally with a Nova the only time you touch the border with fingers is when you attach the sheet to the Nova clip me. Is there anything that could be on his fingers that could produce these effects which then show up under room light which I presume is switched on towards the end of the fixer stage or immediately on the sheet's extraction from the fixer and if so, it would seem to appear in what sounds like almost an instant after removal of the print from the fixer?

Really I am just shooting in the dark here but I throw the above in on a "just in case" basis

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

I don't wish to sound argumentative or curmudgeonly but the OP has already said that he (a) cleaned out his Nova and filled with fresh chemicals (b) he changed from old Jessops paper to new Kentmere paper and (c) did 3 tests on his fixer which were OK .

So do I have answer? No, but I am presuming that it cannot rest on anything which stems from his Nova, chemicals, paper or fixer, based on what he has said.

So can there be anything else which can be reconciled with a,b, and c above that might be causing the issue?

I cannot think of anything other than having the thought that there is something wrong with some part of his process/materials which is not as sound as he thinks.

The strange thing is that each print, I think, only has the problem in the borders although each print's borders seem to exhibit a different problem.

Normally with a Nova the only time you touch the border with fingers is when you attach the sheet to the Nova clip me. Is there anything that could be on his fingers that could produce these effects which then show up under room light which I presume is switched on towards the end of the fixer stage or immediately on the sheet's extraction from the fixer and if so, it would seem to appear in what sounds like almost an instant after removal of the print from the fixer?

Really I am just shooting in the dark here but I throw the above in on a "just in case" basis

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

Agitation could be a cause, the chem volume in a Nova is very small, compared to trays of equivalent size. So if the OP is putting the print in without agitation, uneven fixing wouldn't be a surprise, even with fresh fix. I use a 12x16 Nova, I've occasionally experienced similar staining on the top edge of the print where it's fasten to the clip due to low fix volume causing the top of the print to not be immersed. However, the OP's problem affects the whole print, and the staining is a classic symptom of a fixing problem.

If you want to check for adequate fixing. Dunk the print in selenium toner . You will get instant brown crud.

Simple steps. Fresh paper all new chemistry.

bdial said:

Agitation could be a cause, the chem volume in a Nova is very small, compared to trays of equivalent size. So if the OP is putting the print in without agitation, uneven fixing wouldn't be a surprise, even with fresh fix. I use a 12x16 Nova, I've occasionally experienced similar staining on the top edge of the print where it's fasten to the clip due to low fix volume causing the top of the print to not be immersed. However, the OP's problem affects the whole print, and the staining is a classic symptom of a fixing problem.

Click to expand...

I understand the above but I am puzzled that the stains under the causes you have listed would appear almost instantly or so his thread suggests to me. As the OP is not new to a Nova, at least I don't think he is, I'd be surprised if he isn't agitating or has failed to fill the slot to is correct level but, yes, those are assumptions on my part which may or may not be justified

pentaxuser

Another possibility is the fixer is contaminated with developer from too much carryover. That would explain the borders changing color as soon as light hits it.

Thanks for all the replies.

I'll try to reply to all the points made.

I've used a Nova for over 15 years, so know about the correct level of chemicals and agitation etc. NEVER once since using it have these problems happened to me before. That's why I am so confused.

I use Ilford MG developer and Hypam fixer and Kodak stop bath, all diluted as recommended ie dev @ 1+9; stop @ 1+18; fixer 1+9; with times being 2 minutes; 20 seconds and 2 minutes. I've been using both the Jessop and Kentmere RC papers, with both boxes of paper being used absolutely okay right up until very recently when this all started.

I'm currently using filtered tap water, with an expensive filter and have never had a problem previously, so don't think that is the problem.

I too like others have commented, immediately thought that it was a fixer problem, but as stated, it was replaced along with the other two chemicals, which made no difference to the problem.

The tones in the prints look as they should, but I don't know of any test to check the developer solution. Is there one?

The prints get a good soak in the acid stop bath before going into the fix. I have mixed up some Potassium Iodide to make a fixer test solution and it came back clear, both when I took fixer from the tap at the bottom of the solution and a small amount by suction, from the top of the slot. This test has in the past helped when I had to check the fixer before, as I find the amount of prints quoted by Ilford that are supposed to be able to go through one litre of fixer, is way off. I've found it's about half of what they recommend!

As stated the prints are fixed, and it doesn't matter whether the safe light or the white light is then on, as it is then that the stains appear (IN THE BORDERS ONLY, apart from one print where it JUST about goes into the print tones where the sky is) within seconds of taking the prints out of the fixer bath. This is why I've been wondering why the problem appears when the prints are brought into the air?

I'm a bit busy today but feel slightly better, so hopefully I'll get back in the darkroom tomorrow to try some variations out and try some more papers and probably chemicals as well, this time using a tray, to see if I can nail this problem so that I can get on with some more printing.

I think that I've answered the main points but will go through the thread once more and answer anything else after this post.

Terry S

glbeas said:

Another possibility is the fixer is contaminated with developer from too much carryover. That would explain the borders changing color as soon as light hits it.

Click to expand...

I think it is essential we known what Nova he has. If it's a 4 slot then I'd be surprised if he hasn't used the second slot for stop. On the other hand if it is the two slot which I think exist then carry-over is possible. How much would be required to do what he describes, would it exhibit this almost instantly and what effect can we expect to see in the print area. The print area seems unaffected

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill said:

Have you tried processing in a tray to rule out your Nova?

Click to expand...

Not yet, but hopefully I will try it out tomorrow if I'm feeling well enough.

bdial said:

Are you using an acid stop bath? How long are you fixing? What is your fixer test procedure?

Click to expand...

Yes to an acid stop bath and I fix for 2 minutes. As stated I used Potassium Iodide to make a test solution, which has worked fine when done before.

MattKing said:

Given that you are using a Nova, it might be a problem with locally exhausted fixer. You need to ensure that the fixer is moving over the entire print.

Click to expand...

Adequate agitation was done, as done over the last 15+ years in the Nova with no previous problem. I can't work out how only the borders seem to be affected, even if the (new) fixer bath was exhausted?

bdial said:

Agitation could be a cause, the chem volume in a Nova is very small, compared to trays of equivalent size. So if the OP is putting the print in without agitation, uneven fixing wouldn't be a surprise, even with fresh fix. However, the OP's problem affects the whole print, and the staining is a classic symptom of a fixing problem.

Click to expand...

As said, adequate agitation was done but the stains ONLY affect the borders and NOT THE WHOLE PRINT as you've stated

mshchem said:

If you want to check for adequate fixing. Dunk the print in selenium toner. You will get instant brown crud. Simple steps. Fresh paper all new chemistry.

Click to expand...

I've just put an affected print in selenium toner. NO brown crud or anything else happened. I have tried all fresh chemicals in the Nova and hopefully tomorrow I will try some other newer paper and chemicals.

glbeas said:

Another possibility is the fixer is contaminated with developer from too much carryover. That would explain the borders changing color as soon as light hits it.

Click to expand...

The prints go into an acid fix with colour indicator before the fixer, so I don't think that developer carryover is the problem.

Thanks again for all of your replies and hopefully tomorrow I will report again, with hopefully some better news and maybe even the reason...

Terry S

pentaxuser said:

I think it is essential we known what Nova he has. If it's a 4 slot then I'd be surprised if he hasn't used the second slot for stop. On the other hand if it is the two slot which I think exist then carry-over is possible. How much would be required to do what he describes, would it exhibit this almost instantly and what effect can we expect to see in the print area. The print area seems unaffected

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

I have a three slot heated Nova processor, into which I have Ilford MG developer, Kodak acid stop bath and Ilford Hypam fixer.

And yes, two and one slot Nova's exist.

Terry S

The Potassium Iodide tests the fixer, but is not always accurate, and it doesn't test wether or not the paper is fully fixed.

For example, PE mentions it in this thread;

Photo Engineer said:

The Potassium Iodide test is misleading because it is hard to interpret. Also, since papers are low in iodide or contain no iodide, the test will fail.

Retained silver is usually a test for wash quality and thus retained hypo, but it also tells us that the fix step has failed, if the wash step is good.

Basically, aside from the KI test, there are two others. One involves AgNO3 (Silver Nitrate) in Acetic Acid and the other is Na2S (Sodium Sulfide) in water which does not keep well. Either of these two will darken if there is hypo or Silver Halide present and thus they test for fix activity and wash quality if both are done at the end of the entire process.

Myself, I use a blix made by mixing Ferric Ammonium EDTA with the fix. Then I develop a strip in the light which turns it black and dip it in the blix and measure the time to clear. As I use the fix, the time goes up until the strip being tested will not clear. At that point the fixer is dead, but I usually stop using the fixer before then based on the time needed to clear a strip.

And remember, the fix is actually "dead" before any of these tests say it is. It needs an earlier cutoff than these tests indicate.

PE

Click to expand...

OK , Do you use a paper safe? I have picked up several of the clam shell type paper safes. These have a locking clip that will cock the lid open slightly when not locked. I have seen edge fogging .
The Nova processor is great.
Fresh Hypam mixed 1&4 should clear that paper in 30 seconds. 1&9 2 minutes should be fine.
Fresh paper? ??

tezzasmall said:

I have a three slot heated Nova processor, into which I have Ilford MG developer, Kodak acid stop bath and Ilford Hypam fixer.

And yes, two and one slot Nova's exist.

Terry S

Click to expand...

Thanks, Terry. I had every reason to believe that it was probably not a two slot but I felt I had to ask so we could eliminate that as a cause.
It's still a real head-scratcher

pentaxuser

tezzasmall said:

As said, adequate agitation was done but the stains ONLY affect the borders and NOT THE WHOLE PRINT as you've stated

Click to expand...

I know it's a remote possibility, but what about the easel you're using? Is there any chance there's some sort of contamination on the underside of the arms that hold the paper down?

winger said:

I know it's a remote possibility, but what about the easel you're using? Is there any chance there's some sort of contamination on the underside of the arms that hold the paper down?

Click to expand...

That's an interesting idea...

winger said:

I know it's a remote possibility, but what about the easel you're using? Is there any chance there's some sort of contamination on the underside of the arms that hold the paper down?

Click to expand...

Along with the above suggestion, what about developing a sheet of unexposed paper, and maybe leaving it under the easel for a half minute or so?

What is your dilution for the fix? Can you also give the quantities of fix and water in Liter and/or CC?

Hilo said:

What is your dilution for the fix? Can you also give the quantities of fix and water in Liter and/or CC?

Click to expand...

See post #14, the dilutions are stated there.

Thanks for all the extra posts guys = much appreciated and things to try out.

As for your points...

mshchem said:

OK , Do you use a paper safe? I have picked up several of the clam shell type paper safes. These have a locking clip that will cock the lid open slightly when not locked. I have seen edge fogging. Fresh paper? ??

Click to expand...

No paper safe is used. I put the pack of paper straight back in the box once a sheet has been taken out, with it's original black bag folded over to basically double seal the open end. The Jessops paper is a bit old and the Kentmere about a year. Both are stored in a good temperature in my insulated darkroom. The main thing is that they were both fine one minute and then returning to the session the following day, the problems started. If it was age or storage problems, I would expect to see it happen gradually. I will also be trying out other papers that I have to see if they react as well and then it's a matter of trying various things out before changing the chemicals for the third time if no solution if found.

winger said:

I know it's a remote possibility, but what about the easel you're using? Is there any chance there's some sort of contamination on the underside of the arms that hold the paper down?

Click to expand...

No chance at all Winger. My fingers go no where near the underside of the easel and if I do get even the smallest amount of any chemical on my hands whilst in the darkroom, I have a bucket of clean water to rinse my hands in.

mcfitz said:

Along with the above suggestion, what about developing a sheet of unexposed paper, and maybe leaving it under the easel for a half minute or so?

Click to expand...

Hopefully I will be back in the darkroom this afternoon mcfitz = the Nova is turned on and warming up as we speak.

Hilo said:

What is your dilution for the fix? Can you also give the quantities of fix and water in Liter and/or CC?

Click to expand...

Ilford Hypam fixer diluted at 1 + 9, with the Nova slots holding 2 litres of diluted chemicals each. So that's 200ml of fixer and 1800ml of water that goes into the fixer slot.

Thanks again for all the comments and I will report back when I have done some more tests.

Terry S