Problem with selenium toner diluted in Hypo Clearing

PepMiro · Oct 13, 2005

Normally, I tone my prints with selenium, with the "standard" sequence with no problem at all:

1) developer; 2) stop bath; 3) fixer (1 minute in 1+4 Ilford rapid fixer); 4) washing for 5 minutes; 5) Hypo Clearing Agent; 6) whasing for 5 minutes; 7) Toning with KRST diluted 1+5 to 1+20 in water 8) whasing for 20 minutes.

The only problem is that is very time consuming. For this reason, today, I have tested a new sequence:

1) developer (Dektol); 2) stop bath; 3) fixer (1 minute in 1+4 rapid fixer); 4) Toning in KRST diluted 1+5 in Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent; 5) washing for 5 minutes; 6) Hypo Clearing Agent; 7) Washing for 20 minutes.

With this sequence, I've made my first print perfectly but after, I've made another three that have developed some stain in a portion of the white parts of the print. The stain is visible when the paper is in the toning step.

I don't think any of the baths is exhaust, because all of them were prepared just befores starting the session of printing.

I've used Fiber based graded cold tone paper (Bergger Prestige and Kentmere Art de Luxe).

Thanks for your time,
Josep

Ryuji · Oct 13, 2005

You need a good rinse (1-2 min with good agitation) before toning to avoid staining.

I would do the following:

1) developer; 2) stop bath; 3) fixer (1 minute in 1+4 Ilford rapid fixer); 4) rinse for 2 minutes; 5) Toning with KRST diluted 1+5 to 1+20 in water; 6) wash aid for 3 minutes; 7) whasing for 20 minutes.

Bob F. · Oct 13, 2005

From my reading, selenium will stain in an acidic environment, hence the need to wash after fixing. Kodak says to use hypo clear before KRST. Also from reading (and a bit of applied logic, assuming the first statement is accurate) the use of an alkaline fixer removes the need for the wash. May be something to try to reduce overall processing time. Mixing hypo clear in the KRST apparently increases the time to reach archival levels but does reduce the likelihood of staining (ref: Tim Rudman).

Cheers, Bob.

Donald Miller · Oct 13, 2005

My experience is at direct odds with what some indicate. I found out years ago that I got staining when I rinsed between the hypo clearing agent and toning. I found that incomplete wash created stain whereas no water rinse resulted in none.

My procedure is Developer, stop, first fix (Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Sulfite) second fix (Sodium thiosulate only), Toner (KRST), Hypo clearing agent and wash. I don't rinse between any steps and I do not mix hypo clearing agent with KRST since KRST contains ammonium thiosulfate, according to the information that I have.

It seems that, in my experience, one either need not rinse before toning, or wash completely and that means more then one or two minutes, again based upon my results.

Ryuji · Oct 13, 2005

Bob F. said:
From my reading, selenium will stain in an acidic environment, hence the need to wash after fixing. Kodak says to use hypo clear before KRST. Also from reading (and a bit of applied logic, assuming the first statement is accurate) the use of an alkaline fixer removes the need for the wash. May be something to try to reduce overall processing time. Mixing hypo clear in the KRST apparently increases the time to reach archival levels but does reduce the likelihood of staining (ref: Tim Rudman).

Cheers, Bob.

What's the pH of your tap water? pH of Boston tap water is 9.1 to 9.3 range, and while this may be on a bit higher end, it is very common to keep tap water slightly alkaline. Kodak is probably trying to make one universally applicable recommendation.

The most likely cause of stain is carryover of argentothiosulfate complex from fixing bath. This silver complex can be precipitated out as a silver-selenium compounds. This is the reason you want to have a good rinse between fix and toner. If you use two stage fix and keep the second fix absolutely fresh, this wash may not be necessary, but I would not gamble here.
(of course, insufficient fix can cause stain but I assume this possibility is excluded from the context of the original question)

As far as I know, it was the research done at the Royal Museium of Denmark that showed reduced efficacy of archival protection when KRST is mixed with KHCA.

vet173 · Oct 13, 2005

I just picked up the book" The photographers toning book" by Tim Rudman. To say it opend me to a whole new level on the matter of toning would be an understatement. I highly recommend it.

jmdavis · Oct 13, 2005

Vet,

It is a great book, isn't it. Some of the examples that he uses are amazing. Toned prints that appear to be color, iodine toning, gold, selenium, variations of duotoning. I was very impressed by the variety technical and aesthetic information.

Mike

resummerfield · Oct 13, 2005

Ive been toning pretty much like Donald Miller, in that I go straight from Kodak fixer to toning (selenium 1+30 in HCA) with no wash, and have never experienced staining.

ann · Oct 14, 2005

we do not tone in line, but do use ilford's recommendation for archival washing.

Then tone at a later time.

Toning of any type will reveal any problems with technique in a heart beat.

In the 60's, it was very common to use selenium with HCA, but that thought process changed, altho, those directions are still found on the Kodak label.

Maine-iac · Oct 14, 2005

ann said:
In the 60's, it was very common to use selenium with HCA, but that thought process changed, altho, those directions are still found on the Kodak label.

When did this change in thought process happen? I have for many years used a little KRST (50 ml) with my Perma-Wash, not for changing the color of the print, but to increase its archival process by coating the silver with selenium. The prints are rinsed between fixer and the Perma-Wash/Selenium bath. I'm not worried about staining because the amount of toner is quite small. But am I doing any harm by combining toner with my wash-aid in this manner?

Larry

Maine-iac · Oct 14, 2005

ann said:
In the 60's, it was very common to use selenium with HCA, but that thought process changed, altho, those directions are still found on the Kodak label.

When did this change in thought process happen? I have for many years used a little KRST (50 ml) with my Perma-Wash, not for changing the color of the print, but to increase its archival qualities by coating the silver with selenium. The prints are rinsed between fixer and the Perma-Wash/Selenium bath. I'm not worried about staining because the amount of toner is quite small. But am I doing any harm by combining toner with my wash-aid in this manner?

Larry

titrisol · Oct 14, 2005

Adding Selenium to your perma-wash is fine (assuming is one-shot)

Adding permawash to your toner is supposed to shorten the life of the toner solution (if you plan to reuse it)

ann · Oct 14, 2005

If i remember correctly the "thought" process changed in the 70's some time,

We have tested using HCA as a one shot and as a stock solution as well. THe stock worked fine, and did not break down, but then we used distilled water which may have an effect on the chemical break down. I am not a chemist so can't comment.

We mix all toners with distilled water and use selenium (all ratios) with water as the base not HCA and tone to compeletion to ensure archival properties.

hortense · Oct 14, 2005

For years I have made my Se working solution with tap water, Se concentrate to suit my needs (eg. enough for a ratio ranging from 1-5 through 1-20 depending on the paper, etc.), and 1/4-tsp of Kodalk made up to 500ml. I don't use hypo wash in my Se working solution. After fix, I dump the prints into a large tray of water and let 'em soak for a few minutes; throw them into the Se tray, then the hypo wash tray, and finally into the washer for 45-minutes. BTW, since Ole's comments some time ago, I now use an alkaline fixer.

fotod69 · Feb 18, 2006

Selenium toning

I've been using a process I first learned about in a book Way Beyond Monochrome. Both fixing baths are Kodak Rapid Fix mixed film strength without harderner for 1 minute constant agitation. Then Hypo clearing for 10-15 minutes then 1.5 hours in an archival washer. I then tone in selenium 1:20 then an additional wash for 1 hour. I have the best results from toning af any sequence I've tried. I use the Bergger as well as Kodak papers and get beautiful results with this process. I was surprised to see a great difference in toning by extending the period in hypo clear from 3 to 15 minutes before the archival wash. There was a much greater response to selenium. Anyway, good luck.
Dennis

Les McLean · Feb 18, 2006

I agree with Donald's method but would add that I always used fresh fixer for I experienced staining if the fixer had been used even for a short printing session. I regularly used this method in the days of Record Rapid when I wanted a split tone print and when I found a box of that paper that split. Oh how I miss Record Rapid and for the past 15 years since it's demise I cjanged my washing method to fully washing after fixing, selenium toned and then given a second 20 minute wash and have never had a print stain on me.

MurrayMinchin · Feb 18, 2006

Can someone describe what this stain looks like?

Murray

bill schwab · Feb 18, 2006

MurrayMinchin said:
Can someone describe what this stain looks like?

In my experience, the staining has been a general dulling or "fogging" of the white borders of the paper. Not terribly noticeable until I put it side by side with a properly done print. It just makes the paper base look kind of dirty in comparison. I simply do a healthy wash after HCA - 30 to 40 minutes and it has always worked fine. I also tone with sepia before I do the selenium. Staining from lack of wash time for me comes from that more often than from the selenium.

Rick Jones · Feb 20, 2006

I too experienced a staining problem some years ago and tracked the problem to insufficient fixing. Extending my normal fixing time of 2 minutes in a single fresh bath to 3 minutes with constant agitation did the trick in my case. Sequence: developer, stop, fix (paper strength)-all Sprint chemicals. Fixed print to water holding tray. Short rinse then directly to KRST 1:15 to 1:25 diluted with tap water. Perma Wash 3-4 minutes. Wash 1 hour. Two things to try: because you are using short fixing times with film strength dilution, constant, vigorous agitation seems critical - if you already use good agitation technique I would consider gradually extending fix time. Photographer's Formulary sells a residual silver test solution which is designed to indicate if your prints have been adequately fixed.

Monophoto · Feb 20, 2006

Josep -

Ansel Adams suggested putting the print into the toner directly from the fixer. I also found that this frequently resulted in stains. The process that I have settled on and that seems to be reasonably dependable is Developer - Stop - Fixer (Rapid, 1 minute) - Holding bath (until the end of the printing session) - Hypoclear (1 minute) - Toner - Hypoclear - Wash

dancqu · Feb 20, 2006

Monophoto said:
Ansel Adams suggested putting the print
into the toner directly from the fixer.

That is true, a second simple alkaline fixer.
IIRC, Adams for some time used this procedure:
Develop, weak acid stop, acid fix, hold, S. Thio. + S. Sulfite
alkaline fix, KRST in KHCA, ?, ? . As I remember the story,
the KRST in KHCA was between himself and Kodak
although Kodak did know it worked. When did
Kodak bring out KRST? Early 50s? Dan

hortense · Feb 20, 2006

Donald,
Agree with your procedure; I do this too ... and, I think? I got the idea from KODAK?

dancqu · Feb 23, 2006

[QUOTES=Ryuji]
"If you use two stage fix and keep the second fix
absolutely fresh, this wash may not be necessary, ..."

Or, if you use the very dilute, one-shot, neutral ph,
single bath, archival fix, no wash after fix may be needed.
Transfer of prints from an alkaline second fix to a KRST +
HCA bath seems to be quite usual. I should mention
though that that mix is not archival; won't keep.

"As far as I know, it was the research done at the Royal
Museum of Denmark that showed reduced efficacy of
archival protection when KRST is mixed with KHCA."

I wonder sometimes if this whole matter of after
treatments for improved archival qualities isn't over
blown. I dare say there are many SG prints in fine
condition from a century or so ago which
saw no such conditioning. Dan

Problem with selenium toner diluted in Hypo Clearing

PepMiro

Ryuji

Bob F.

Donald Miller

Ryuji

vet173

jmdavis

resummerfield

ann

Maine-iac

Maine-iac

titrisol

ann

hortense

fotod69

Les McLean

MurrayMinchin

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bill schwab

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Rick Jones

Monophoto

dancqu

hortense

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Problem with selenium toner diluted in Hypo Clearing

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