Problem with RA-4 printing: very heavy cyan cast

[timsch]

Hi all,

I'm printing my work for the final exhibition of my master's degree in photography and I'm having some issues with my RA-4 prints. I'm using a Thermaphot ACP-302 with Adox RA-4 chemicals and I'm printing on Fuji Crystal Archive paper.

Every time I fill the machine with fresh chemicals, it takes an unusual long time before I get good results. Of course I wait until the chemistry is heated to a consistent 35°C. But then the first test strips always have a very dark cyan cast (see picture)… On that first day of printing, the cyan cast always wears off after an hour or two, but I can’t seem to figure out why. After it disappears, I can keep printing and keep getting steady results. But when I stop printing for the day and start again first thing in the morning after, I have the same issue with the heavy cyan cast and this time it won’t go away, whatever I do to try to fix it. So I’ve actually never been able to use the same chemistry for more than one day.

I’m sure it must be some kind of mistake from my end, but I seriously can’t figure out what it could be. There’s nothing wrong with the enlager, nor with the paper (bought it brand new). The same paper using the exact same enlargers settings that gave me the desired results on the first day, come out completely cyan on the second day. Since the chemistry gives me consistent results on the first day (after the cyan cast wears off), I guess that can’t be it either.

Really have no clue what causes this rather tedious problem and I can’t really find anything online that resembles my case.

I currently still have the same chemistry in the ACP which I filled it with yesterday and everything is yet again very cyan. I only have tomorrow to finish the rest of my prints and luckily one more batch of fresh chemistry on stock, but these issues have really taken up quite a big portion of my paper and time...

Really hope someone can help me out with this.

Kind regards,
Tim

 

[koraks]

Welcome to Photrio!

A cyan cast like that is often the result of blix carryover into the developer. Have you eliminated any possibility of contamination of your developer?

Another possibility is fogging due to use of a safelight. If you're not already doing so, please ensure you're handling the paper in a completely dark environment until it emerges from the blix bath.

Given the pattern of the cyan cast, I have a feeling your paper is being fogged by red or orange light during handling.

 

[timsch]

Welcome to Photrio!

A cyan cast like that is often the result of blix carryover into the developer. Have you eliminated any possibility of contamination of your developer?

Another possibility is fogging due to use of a safelight. If you're not already doing so, please ensure you're handling the paper in a completely dark environment until it emerges from the blix bath.

Given the pattern of the cyan cast, I have a feeling your paper is being fogged by red or orange light during handling.

Thank you!

I'm pretty sure the developer can't have been contaminated, since I left the racks in the processor ever since pouring in the chemicals yesterday around noon. Yesterday, the first test strips immediately had the same cyan cast, which disappeared maybe an hour later. From that point on, I spent about 10 hours of printing without any issues. When I wanted to restart printing this morning, the cyan cast was back and now it won't go away like it always does on the first day. Also, every now and then I get a nicely white unexposed test strip, but not consistently...

I'm not using a safelight and pretty sure my darkroom is entirely free of any light...

It also can't be a temperature problem, since I always double check the temperatures of the two baths with a thermometer.

Thanks for answering so quickly.

 

[Don_ih]

The colour cast is on the unexposed parts of one of your prints, so is it possible that the colour paper gets fogged in the darkroom between printing sessions, say by a yellow (amber) light?

 

[timsch]

The colour cast is on the unexposed parts of one of your prints, so is it possible that the colour paper gets fogged in the darkroom between printing sessions, say by a yellow (amber) light?

Hi!

This could be it, I've left the boxes on the table next to my enlargers in stead of storing it back in the closet. I assumed they were closed securely enough, but I could have been wrong.

Thanks!

 

[Don_ih]

I hope that's the cause. Mysteries are only fun when they're someone else's.

 

[koraks]

I left the racks in the processor ever since pouring in the chemicals yesterday around noon.

It's not the cause of your problem, but I've always been warned to not leave the racks sitting in a machine filled with chemistry while it's not being used. A single night probably won't hurt, but don't leave it like this between sessions as a rule. Drain the machine, rinse the racks and set them to dry.

Also, every now and then I get a nicely white unexposed test strip, but not consistently...

Do you get strips of the same sheet that are clean, while the rest of the sheet is fogged? This would be a clue as to where and when the fogging occurs.

I still think fogging to light, either red or yellow in color, is the source of your problem.

Where does your paper come from? Do you purchase cut-sheet paper? If so, from what source? If you cut your own sheets from a roll, how and under what circumstances?

What pattern is there to the fogging, other than the distinct gradient originating from one corner in the single example you've shown? Can you post some more examples? In particular':
* What's the pattern to the fog on each single sheet; i.e. does it show the same kind of gradient, is it an even gradient or is the fogging uneven with a wavy pattern, stripes etc?
* What is the sheet-to-sheet pattern? Are all fogged sheets more or less the same, or are they fogged in a different way?

I've left the boxes on the table next to my enlargers in stead of storing it back in the closet.

While that's not a good idea, RA4 paper fogged to normal room light virtually always shows yellow, red and black 'flame-like' patterns. The possible exception is fogging through the black, light-proof plastic bag the sheets should be stored in (if such a bag is not present, rethink sourcing of your paper and handling procedures). Also, this one is easy to check since any sheet from the bottom of the stack will not be fogged; only the ones from the very top will suffer from this.

PS: this is what "partially fogged to room light" typically looks like:

(A sheet of paper from a box, not stored in a light proof bag, and the box left out next to the enlarger in normal room light for a bit - exactly like you described; note different color and pattern to fogging.)

 

[Ericc]

A kodak #13 safelight will turn your paper blue/cyan the longer it's exposed to the light. Light leaks turn the paper orange like koraks shows above.. I found that all my paper safe's leaked light and I was getting orange bands on the paper.. So now after cutting paper from the roll the paper goes into a black bag first, then into paper safe, which goes into another black bag.

Since the photo's have clean margins at least on one side this seems to me to be a chemistry issue or some sorts.

-Eric

 

[foc]

I noticed from your image posted that the cyan cast appears in the white border on the right but looks like it doesn't on the left of the image.

Am I reading that correctly?

Contamination would cause the whole border to be the same colour.

Could there be a light fog/leak when the paper is transferred from the enlarger to the processor or in the processor?

 

[Samu]

Two possibilities come to my mind. Carryover of blix into developer or paper exposed shortly to a red safelight intended to black and white printing. Do you have a exposure timer with red digits with the display uncovered in your darkroom? Any red light would stain the paper cyan.

 

[btaylor]

Back to one of koraks’ comments, what was the source of the paper? There is the factory packed Crystal Archive and other vendors that sell repacked cut sheets (I assume cut from rolls). I had the same frustrating experience using repacked Fuji paper from Freestyle. Some of it was okay, but much of it was cyan fogged- and none of it in a consistent way. Took me a bit to figure it out. Fuji factory packed cut sheets fixed it.

 

[pentaxuser]

I wonder if timsch did decide on what the cause was?

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

I wonder if timsch did decide on what the cause was?

pentaxuser

As you well know, we might wonder forever, and doing so out loud will not change a thing (doing so silently won't, either).

Given the fact that it's now mid-July and he was working on his Master's project, @timsch most likely has resolved the issue by now one way or another.

 

[pentaxuser]

As you well know, we might wonder forever, and doing so out loud will not change a thing (doing so silently won't, either).

Given the fact that it's now mid-July and he was working on his Master's project, @timsch most likely has resolved the issue by now one way or another.

Yes no doubt he has. Just natural curiosity on my part and I did slap my wrist as a punishment afterwards for wondering out loud about it so to speak

You never know, he might one day come back, see this and give us an answer

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

I did slap my wrist as a punishment afterwards

Good, good

 

[ashcorra]

same issue here. same paper. factory cut though.

 

[ashcorra]

i thought i had figured it out because my timer is, in fact red, but after i turned the screen off while exposing, i got the same cyan cast, again. im so frustrated.

 

[MattKing]

Try developing a piece of paper that hasn't been exposed using the enlarger but has been out of the package approximately the same time that a sheet would be that you had exposed. That will help check for unwanted ambient light.

 

[koraks]

@ashcorra it's frustrating indeed when problems like these pop up. However, we can best help you if you keep your posts on the issue concentrated in one place and you already have a thread dedicated to your issue. I'd also be hesitant to assume your problem is the same as the one reported in this thread. There's some similarity in the final outcome, but the causes can be wildly different. Also take note that the problem in this thread was never really solved.

 

[bobocamera]

Very old thread, but I had run into a very similar issue in a Thermaphot ACP 404. Uneven cyan streaks all across every sheet, in different shapes/streaks too. Sending through an entirely unexposed sheet still gave the streaks, so not a fogging issue.

(in the screenshot above, ignore the yellow D-min issue, it was due to an expired box of paper that Fuji sold new)

For me it was solved by adding glacial acetic acid to the blix tank to act as an additional stop bath. I spoke with a mentor of mine with much more experience than me, and here's some more of his correspondence as to why it was happening:

The fact that you are getting a form of mottling or streaking makes me think the bulk of the problem is at the entrance to the BLIX tank where developer carry-in eventually (too quickly) can momentarily overpower the "stop bath" effect as rivulets of only partially neutralized develop continue to follow the paper's plunge into the BLIX causing uneven over development. The larger the sheet (width & length) of the paper the greater the unevenness.​

I still think the problem is at the entrance to the BLIX. A spray bar kluge might be in order but without actually seeing it, I don't know if it is possible. How well "squeegeed" is the paper exiting the Dev. tank? Could be a factor.​

You could try lowering the pH of the BLIX gradually. Although difficult to measure pH in a colored solution, you could add measured amounts of glacial acetic acid (be careful with it!) starting with a liter (make sure mixed in completely) and then a second liter. Without knowing the actual BLIX tank capacity nor the outcome of the first test at a liter this is only an estimate at a distance. You could always backtrack the pH with some KOH if the pH lowering makes the chemistry go south.​

​

We also ruled out chemical contamination as we had mixed everything fresh and the cyan smearing was still ever present. Adding glacial acetic acid to the blix bath completely solved the smearing, though it took us some trial and error to figure out the least amount we had to add. We arrived at adding 50ml of glacial acetic acid per 4.5L of blix (our processor's tank size).

 

[halfaman]

Very old thread, but I had run into a very similar issue in a Thermaphot ACP 404. Uneven cyan streaks all across every sheet, in different shapes/streaks too. Sending through an entirely unexposed sheet still gave the streaks, so not a fogging issue.
View attachment 392362
(in the screenshot above, ignore the yellow D-min issue, it was due to an expired box of paper that Fuji sold new)

For me it was solved by adding glacial acetic acid to the blix tank to act as an additional stop bath. I spoke with a mentor of mine with much more experience than me, and here's some more of his correspondence as to why it was happening:

The fact that you are getting a form of mottling or streaking makes me think the bulk of the problem is at the entrance to the BLIX tank where developer carry-in eventually (too quickly) can momentarily overpower the "stop bath" effect as rivulets of only partially neutralized develop continue to follow the paper's plunge into the BLIX causing uneven over development. The larger the sheet (width & length) of the paper the greater the unevenness.​

I still think the problem is at the entrance to the BLIX. A spray bar kluge might be in order but without actually seeing it, I don't know if it is possible. How well "squeegeed" is the paper exiting the Dev. tank? Could be a factor.​

You could try lowering the pH of the BLIX gradually. Although difficult to measure pH in a colored solution, you could add measured amounts of glacial acetic acid (be careful with it!) starting with a liter (make sure mixed in completely) and then a second liter. Without knowing the actual BLIX tank capacity nor the outcome of the first test at a liter this is only an estimate at a distance. You could always backtrack the pH with some KOH if the pH lowering makes the chemistry go south.​

​

We also ruled out chemical contamination as we had mixed everything fresh and the cyan smearing was still ever present. Adding glacial acetic acid to the blix bath completely solved the smearing, though it took us some trial and error to figure out the least amount we had to add. We arrived at adding 50ml of glacial acetic acid per 4.5L of blix (our processor's tank size).

Don't go too low in pH or you may start descomposing the bleach part of the BLIX and reducing bath life. You can try adding sodium sulfite to the BLIX instead, which acts as a dye coupler competitor avoiding dye formation, and it does not alter pH so much.

 

[koraks]

@bobocamera I understand the ACP404 has 4 tanks. The obvious solution in this case would be to use tank 1 for developer, tank 2 for an acetic acid stop bath and tank 3 for blix. Tank 4 can be a wash or stab; the prints can/should be washed after they come out of the machine if they're intended as the final/long-term stable product.
I agree with @halfaman that adjusting the pH of the blix beyond the manufacturer's specs is not a good idea, although on the other hand, blix is rather robust.

50ml of glacial acetic acid per 4.5L of blix

That's quite a lot. I honestly wouldn't go there.

 

[Samu]

That's quite a lot. I honestly wouldn't go there.

Sounds like too much of acid to me. I do have to correct my replenished blix pH regularly, but the amount needed to put the blix from a pH just above 7 to the required 6 or so, takes about 5 mL of 60% CH3COOH pre liter of blix. The fixer part will sulfurize if the blix is very much too acidic. Also, it may affact the dyes, as they are the specified color in a specific pH. This is one of the reasons the pH of the last reacting bath is important in color processes. For this reason, acidic "rapid" fixer is not used in color film processes.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I'd check the roller squeegees for wear first - they're absolutely critical to preventing carryover. If they can't be easily replaced, then instigate a stop bath.