Problem with R09

wclavey · Sep 13, 2007

I sent a note off to FOMA yesterday describing my situation and asking a few questions. I will see if they respond and post any additional information here.

I have been over the notes here again (thanks for all the input!). Just to tie up a few loose ends:

I threw the film away after it had dried. My recollection was that it was entirely blank, with no frame numbers, but I can no longer be sure.

I am certain I did not fix before developing. I have a workflow that I follow (...years of being a lab research technician). (1) I load the film. (2) I mix the developer. (3) I start the development. (4) Then I get the other chemicals out of the cabinet. Since I developed film late at night and was often tired, this sequence prevented me from making exactly that mistake.

Jiri, I think I am going to get an opaque evacuation bottle that I can squeeze the air out of each time and store the concentrate in that after I open it. I suspect you are right about the cause (light and air leakage). I store the chemicals in a semi-dark cabinet, but it is in a translucent bottle which is too stiff to squeeze (square & rigid) and I could not guarantee that it was sealed each time, even though the lid was on tight. I will try this with the new bottle of concentrate I just openned. Unfortunately, it will take me 3 months to know if this change worked.

Thanks, again, for all the input and help.

Xmas · Sep 13, 2007

I'd suggest it is not necessary to do anything difficult with the paraamenophenols, (Rodinal like) they dont need an opaque bottle only restoppered. Agfa used to use a dark glass bottle, with an inner rubber stopper and a covering screw cap to crush the rubber seal further. They stopped this about '75, going to plastic, the plastic was good for >25 years, for a 1/2 ful bottle or mine was - I did not mean to do this test.
The concentrates dont need heating up to dissolve any precipitate, that could very well destroy them.
If you really must decant to another bottle then you need to be sure and take as much of the precipitate as you can get across, the precipitate is in effect the preserative, no precipitate and I think it will go off quickly, but it is a really good experiment if you like risk...
Rodinal is a lazy persons developer, yawn zzzzzzzzz.

Noel

wclavey · Sep 13, 2007

Xmas said:
Rodinal is a lazy persons developer, yawn zzzzzzzzz.

Noel

Perhaps I shouldn't ask... what does that mean? Because using it requires just diluting it from concentrate to the required volume? Because the results are reproducible?

k_jupiter · Sep 13, 2007

poutnik said:
Since this disaster of my in-law I started doing this as a precaution to damaging my films: prior to any development I use a strip of cut sheet film to test the mixed developer solution - dip the strip in the dev for one or two minutes (in full light) - it should turn black, then throw it away. If it does not turn black, something is wrong...

Better solution?

Find a better developer that doesn't give you these issues. Most developers I use won't hack a two minute gestation time to do a test like this. i.e. W2D2+, Dixactol, or even Rodinal 1:100.

If you are stuck on R09, put an open date on the container and throw it away after three months.

tim in san jose

Xmas · Sep 13, 2007

Xmas said:
I'd suggest it is not necessary to do anything difficult with the paraamenophenols, (Rodinal like) they dont need an opaque bottle only restoppered. Agfa used to use a dark glass bottle, with an inner rubber stopper and a covering screw cap to crush the rubber seal further. They stopped this about '75, going to plastic, the plastic was good for >25 years, for a 1/2 ful bottle or mine was - I did not mean to do this test.
The concentrates dont need heating up to dissolve any precipitate, that could very well destroy them.
If you really must decant to another bottle then you need to be sure and take as much of the precipitate as you can get across, the precipitate is in effect the preserative, no precipitate and I think it will go off quickly, but it is a really good experiment if you like risk...
Rodinal is a lazy persons developer, yawn zzzzzzzzz.

Noel

Sorry I apologise - I forgot I had a bottle in a cardboard box for 25 years, people told me it would be ok so I did not throw it out. Just used it up. When it was empty I bought two bottles to replace it, the second is not going to go off.
The developer should last for ever. It needs no care at all, just replace stopper, dont lose the small pipette for the dilution, and 68 degrees water. Dont decant to remove the sediment this will destroy it, though you can use the last drop. If you make your own up the recipe calls out leaving a sediment. A chemist should confirm all this.
Other developers need a date of opening the concentrate, you dont need this with rodinal. The shop I bought my bottle moved away in '79, so I know it was old. It is not a lifed product it is easy to use. fast fixer you have to be more careful with. It is not that toxic either.
Noel

poutnik · Sep 14, 2007

k_jupiter: I generally use R09 in 1:40 solution - in this strength it should work enough in 2minutes for me to check.

I am not stuck with R09, but I have two unopened bottles already at home. I will finish them and then go for Rodinal proper. I have already come to terms with the results I get from this type of dev and don't want to throw my knowledge of it away...

Fotohuis · Sep 14, 2007

Again , be aware that Fomadon R09 has an experation date. The lifetime indeed depends on the oxidation rate and UV light.

In our test (Rodinal versus R09) you can also see that the grain of the film is more visible with R09 than with the Rodinal developer. Also the density 1+20 compared with Rodinal 1+25 is slightly more with the same developing time.

I think practical storage of R09 after opening and a safe time to use it up will be 1-2 years, much depending how full or empty is the bottle of the concentrate. You can not estimate the oxidation process by the color. It's already dark brown when it's new.
And in our bottle of 1 1/2 y.o. R09 there is no precipitate. In the 4 y.o. Rodinal bottle there are a few crystals.

If you want to be safe use the Rodinal para-amino phenol developer. Less grain and a much longer lifetime.

poutnik · Sep 16, 2007

Concerning the R09, yesterday I have developed 2 test sheets of Kodak Technical Pan, shot at EI 25, developed as found in the forum here in 1:100 R09 (Rodinal was called for originally). I absolutely love the clouds and sky in the first picture, and the tonality in the second one (an indoor portrait) is also good. Now I have 23 more sheets to use wisely. (I have yet to scan the pictures, but hopefully will add them to my gallery in the future).

Another reason to stick with R09/Rodinal kind of developer.

wclavey · Oct 21, 2007

An Update

I took someone's advise earlier in this thread and contacted Foma. I described the problem as I put it in my original post and I recently got back this advice from them.

1. Put the R09 concentrate into a new, sealable bottle after opening the one that it is shipped in (...the seal they use on the top of the bottle does not come off cleanly and the lid will not tighten completely so it leaks air).

2. Do not try to keep it for more than 6 months.

I thought I would pass this along to the other Foma R09 users. Thanks for all the advice earlier in the thread.

rusty71 · Oct 21, 2007

Thanks, but I'll keep using my 5 year old bottle of Rodinal.

dpurdy · Oct 21, 2007

A little bit of mistrust is the same as a whole lot of mistrust when it comes to developing your film. I am afraid to use the last quarter of my bottle of R09. The tests I did with it showed more grain than using beutlers. I was looking for something slightly less grainy than beutlers with nearly the same acutance. The last time I used Rodinal.. several years ago, it didn't give the same grain as Beutlers even diluted to 100 to1. I guess I will just stick with Beutlers.

dp

rusty71 · Oct 22, 2007

Well, as I see it, bad Developer is like bad food. Better to throw it out than take the risk!

Fotohuis · Oct 22, 2007

Thanks, but I'll keep using my 5 year old bottle of Rodinal.

Rodinal is a real exception.

Do you keep 5 years old Ilfosol-S ?
Do you keep 5 years old Xtol ?

No because they can die within 3-4 months.

But indeed the tip for removing the seal on the Fomadon R09 is correct. When the bottle is leaking the lifetime is much shorter.
6 months is very safe limit. My R09 bottle (original) aging test is now almost 2 years on a 3/4 full bottle and it is still working.
However the amount of oxygen in the bottle is critical in the degradation process of developers.

When using a Beutler receipture the acutance and sharpness is even higher than Rodinal/R09. But these kind of developers you can use on slow speed films only. A perfect combination of Beutler is with Rollei PAN 25 film. Overhere we have the choice of AM50, which is a further development of AM20 (original 1936).

Better to throw it out than take the risk!

Sure, because it's very cheap so why should you risk all your time for making nice photos and spoil it by using old crappy junk.
But OK, I know that it is often the time which is spend for getting new supplies which is driven to this wrong decision. Not on every corner you can get photochemical supplies anymore

Problem with R09

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