Problem with Ilford HP5 in sheet and 120 (unexplained sratches)

snay1345 · Aug 17, 2013

I posted this on the large format photography forum and they suggested that I post it here as somebody from Ilford visits here.

I have a problem that I thought was me at first but now I am thinking it is something wrong with Ilford film. I shoot HP5 across all formats, and recently in the last few rolls of 120 I have gotten wavy lines that run across the non emulsion side of the film. At first I thought it might have been the camera that I was using, but then I developed another roll that I had put through a different camera. The lines looked the same. Then I thought it might have been from me squeegeeing the film so I stopped doing it and the lines were still there. So I figured it was something with the medium format film I had. But then I just developed 2 sheets of 4x5 HP5 and the same lines were there. The lines ran straight across the whole sheet on the non emulsion side. With my sheet film nothing touched the film at all except for liquid and its time in the film holder. I didn't squeegee the film nor did I touch it with anything and the lines are almost the same. I have attached three photos that you can see the lines in on a sheet of film as well as from a roll of 120. Has anyone ever seen anything like this and what could be causing it? For the record both films were stand developed in Rodinal for 1 hour with minimal inversions at the beginning and 2 inversions at the half way point. Dilution was 1:100.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alex1345/9522582212/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alex1345/9522582882/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alex1345/9522582806/

markbarendt · Aug 17, 2013

Go direct

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Or

http://ilfordphoto.com/contact.asp

markbarendt · Aug 17, 2013

Ilford recommends the no presoak be done. I've also found no need for presoak.

clayne · Aug 17, 2013

I've never found pre-soak to create anything looking like scratches though. I don't think pre-soaking has anything to do with this.

clayne · Aug 17, 2013

Okay, well I don't believe the AH has anything to do with scratches either. Personally, whenever these issues come up, it's almost never the film, but there have been some very rare cases where people have run into issues.

The problem is that usually it's not relegated to just a single individual's film. For the film above, the OP should get the relevant emulsion, box numbers, etc. and ask Simon about it. Now, to have the *same* kind of scratches with both medium format and sheet film seems almost impossible from the factory unless the same slitter is being used and the problem were there. Pretty certain they're on a different base and hence a different master.

pentaxuser · Aug 17, 2013

My sympathies. How many HP5+ films have you developed with stand development before this problem happened and or did it only happen after your tried stand development?

Frankly I think the odds of it being a fault with HP5+ in both 120 and 4x5 has to be very large. If it is a fault then the way film is manufactured it is likely to affect many metres of film and I'd expect other reports of the same fault

Try another HP5+ film but this time without stand development to see if the same fault appears. You are liable to get all sorts of suggestions on the causes such as pre-soak etc and you will get others blaming stand development which appears to have a history of problems which some experience and others don't but using a "standard" development process will help establish if it is connected to stand development.

If it happens again with the change to standard development and you can be sure that the process was completed OK then it may be time to contact Ilford.

I hope it can be solved

pentaxuser

clayne · Aug 17, 2013

But then I just developed 2 sheets of 4x5 HP5 and the same lines were there

How'd you develop the 4x5? Tray?

MartinP · Aug 17, 2013

The sheet and 120 are on different film-bases (hence different coating, line, cutter etc) aren't they - so a manufacturing problem is only remote possibility. Nevertheless, retrieve all packing details about batch numbers and so on, in case you need them later.

It looks almost like a crack rather than a scratch which, of course, one would expect to be more likely on the emulsion side rather than the base - unless the HP5+ has a retouching, or anti-curl, layer applied to the base side?

Were all chemicals within a degrees of each other, including the washes? Thinking of some sort of extreme thermal problem.

Were the stop and fixer standard products and diluted appropriately? Thinking of some sort of pH effect.

Was there any severe flexing of the film during the loading or developing of the sheet film? The sheets look as though the film was bent back on itself hard as it was pulled out of the DDS - I discovered that little possibility, courtesy of a ten year old child and a pinhole-camera experiment. Oops.

If you can test another sheet or roll in completely standard development then that would give a baseline regarding the process.

If it seems that the damage really is on the film base itself before processing then look at a raw sheet, without exposure or development, and go over it with a magnifier looking for any marks.

snay1345 · Aug 17, 2013

I am going to do a regimented developing of a roll of HP5 in D76 and see what happens.

250swb · Aug 18, 2013

As two types of film base are affected, and presumably two styles of film development are used, a common cause seems to lie outside the actual processing. I find it hard to believe the idea that pre-soaking the film can scratch the non-emulsion side. So I'd like to ask how the film is stored before use? In a freezer compartment of a fridge or just in the cool compartment? And how quickly is it normally warmed up to room temperature?

Steve

snay1345 · Aug 18, 2013

I keep the film in the fridge until it is ready to be used. There is usually a couple of hours between storage removal and use.

ChuckP · Aug 18, 2013

You might want to sacrifice a sheet right out of the box to check for problems. You can always use it for fixer checks.

Ian Grant · Aug 18, 2013

What was your temperature control like ? By that I mean how accurate and consistent between all the stages of processing including washing. It looks like the emulsion has been significantly softened, maybe has reticulated, it would scratch incredibly easily.

I use HP5 it's my film of choice for hand-held LF work and I find the results outstanding, I also process at 26-27°C when in Turkey, that's the water temperature in the Summer and it's easier to be consistent, however I've never had a problem with HP5, Delta 100 & 400, Tmax 100, or Fomapan 100 & 200.

Rodinal contains Potassium Hydroxide and that can soften emulsions, along with poor temperature controls you might get issues. I say might because I never used HP5 & Rodinal although I used Rodinal for over 25 years with other films again no problems personally. I jave seen a problem with someone else processing.

Ian

Jim Noel · Aug 18, 2013

Quit squeegeeing the film. Use a good surfactant such as LFN after washing instead. This can easily be the source of all of your scratches, both straight and wiggly.

Simon R Galley · Aug 19, 2013

Dear Snay 1345,

Firstly, I am sorry you have experienced an issue with an ILFORD film.

I cannot be 100% certain, you cannot be until you see the negs but its highly unlikely to be a problem with manufacture, especially across the two formats.

We have a QC ( quality control ) list where I can see any current QC's in our system, we have none related to HP5+ at all across any format at present.

The most important thing is that you bought an ILFORD film, you are obviously entitled to have it checked out, you need to tell us the batch numbers and return the negs to us ( Marked for technical service HARMAN technology LImited at the UK address ) and importantly tell us if you want the negs back, we will then examine the film and tell you what it is.

You will get one of three answers : Cause Justified = A problem existed in manufacture
Cause Not Certain = We cannot be conclusive as to the cause
Cause Not Justified = No problem in manufacture

If its the first or second we will obviously replace the film free of charge.

Finally some contributors mentioned pre-washing : Firstly HARMAN technology Limited do not recommend pre-washing as we do not believe it is required for even development of modern coated emulsions, BUT If you choose to pre-wash it, it is perfectly safe to do so ( but as with all films not overlong ) and will not harm the film in anyway.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology limited :

Misko78 · Aug 23, 2013

I have these long wavy lines on whole length of the hp5+ 120 film. Development process was like this: pre-wash 2x30 secs, Rodinal 1+50 for 12 minutes, agitation 45 secs + 10 secs every minute, quick wash, stop bath 90 secs, quick wash, 1st fixer 90secs, 2nd fixer 90secs, ilford wash method, 120secs final wash in ilfotol 1+200 solution. Hanged to dry without squeegeeing. I have crud in city water so i use demi water in whole process.

What could have caused it?

John Wiegerink · Aug 23, 2013

Misko78 said:
I have these long wavy lines on whole length of the hp5+ 120 film. Development process was like this: pre-wash 2x30 secs, Rodinal 1+50 for 12 minutes, agitation 45 secs + 10 secs every minute, quick wash, stop bath 90 secs, quick wash, 1st fixer 90secs, 2nd fixer 90secs, ilford wash method, 120secs final wash in ilfotol 1+200 solution. Hanged to dry without squeegeeing. I have crud in city water so i use demi water in whole process.

What could have caused it?

I'd say you have a water drying problem. Almost looks like lime/calcium deposits streaking the film. The next roll you dry try hanging it horizontal. I do this most of the time now with my 120 film. The water droplets have less distance to travel and much less time to leave deposits on your film. If you dry horizontal and still have the marks, but going in a direction across the film you'll then know it's a water drying problem. Might be your demi water or wetting agent. I always used way to much Kodak Photo-Flo and always had spotting problems. I learned that more is not always better! Also, it seems that your fix times are on the short side, but I don't use two bath for film. I do for prints, but not film. If there is a problem with the film you'd hear a huge uproar and we're not hearing that. Since there is not an outcry I'd say it's something "in home" that's causing you the grief. Hanging the film horizontal to dry would be a very good place to start. JohnW

Misko78 · Aug 23, 2013

Thanks for an answer, I'll certainly try horizontal drying it's very logical. I never had problem with my workflow with 35mm film, and i did many rolls with tap water, i switched to demi because EFKE(ADOX) 25 is a magnet for crud from water, i don't know, maybe 10 times more than other films. I'm new to a 120 format, friend gifted me a Pentacon Six and i really enjoy in it. As for a fix time, Fomafix (rapid fixer) instruction says 3 minutes in 1+5 solution for film.

Mark_S · Aug 23, 2013

Misko

A few thoughts:
I use HP5+ quite a bit, in both 120 and 4x5 and have not seen anything like what you are seeing. My 'normal' process is:
I use a Jobo processor, so temperature and agitation are very consistent from one processing session to the next.
I presoak for 1min in tap water.
I mix my developer, stop and fix from liquid, and use distilled water.
After fix, I wash in tap water.
As a final step I let the film soak in a bath of distilled water with a wetting agent (edwal?) and then hang the film from a corner, so that as the water sheets off, it has a corner for that last drop to migrate to.

I do not squeege per-se, but I do gently wipe the roll film between my fingers to get some of the water off.

The negatives usually hang overnight in my (relatively dust free) darkroom.

John Wiegerink · Aug 23, 2013

Misko78 said:
Thanks for an answer, I'll certainly try horizontal drying it's very logical. I never had problem with my workflow with 35mm film, and i did many rolls with tap water, i switched to demi because EFKE(ADOX) 25 is a magnet for crud from water, i don't know, maybe 10 times more than other films. I'm new to a 120 format, friend gifted me a Pentacon Six and i really enjoy in it. As for a fix time, Fomafix (rapid fixer) instruction says 3 minutes in 1+5 solution for film.

Like I said, I've never used a two-bath fix for film so I probably shouldn't have commented on your fix time. I'm using a homebrew alki fix and my times are longer. Still, the horizontal hanging would give you a clue that's for sure. JohnW

nevsky187 · Sep 30, 2013

Sorry, Mr. Gallery, but I can confirm the presence of this problem on a roll of 120 film I just shot, purchased recently in Tokyo, Japan. The scratches on the base side of my 120 HP5+ are identical to those shown by snay1345 above. I developed Kodak film rolls shot before and after this one in the same camera and developed them in the same tank. This is clearly a manufacturing problem

Simon R Galley · Oct 1, 2013

Dear Nevsky187,

Firstly I am extremely sorry you have experienced a problem with an ILFORD Photo product as always we are happy to check out your film :

As to your statement 'this is clearly a manufacturing problem' that is absolutely your opinion to which of course you are absolutely entitled, I would suggest since we are the manufacturer I would be in a position to actually tell you if that was the case, but until I see the film I cannot and nor can anyone else. As of 10.33 GMT today we have four quality complaints from customers worldwide under investigation for HP5+ ( all formats ).

The number of 'Justified' complaints, in other words a manufacturing defect is quite frankly tiny, and usually we are able to determine what 'did' cause any issue fairly quickly.

As you have a problem similar or identical to another poster you have obviously formed your own opinion, I would suggest that the best course of action would be to follow some of the other posters advice and send the affected film to us where it goes through a process that means you will get a definitive answer regarding your quality complaint. If it does have a manufacturing fault you will told that and the film will also be replaced.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

railwayman3 · Oct 1, 2013

Are we talking about the white marks in the pictures? They really do look like some form of deposit rather than scratches, which would presumably be some kind of deposit from water and/or drying agent, or some external deposit onto the film while wet. Does a rewash have any effect? And can you identify anything more with a strong magnifier (or even access to a simple microscope)?

Other than that, I don't think anything more can be deduced from the samples as shown here without examining the actual film, and Ilford themselves would seem to be the best people to do this.

georgegrosu · Oct 2, 2013

From the pictures I see faults presented different. Photo 2 and Photo + Photo 1.
In Photo 2, if you look (reflected light ) you see scratch on the surface of emulsion or support?
Or failure seems to be in depth of film?
Examine negatives in reflected light (the emulsion and support).
Watch the light shine emulsion and support. If everything appears continuously without failure, then the problem is inside the movie. Is not a sratche surface that shines in the film depth.
I saw some problems that seem to me somewhat similar, the other negative (cine).
In the form of points with a small tail. We have told comets.
After my appreciation the depth were in the film.
These problems we saw and on virgin film. Veiled negative after development where these issues were is not black but bright white.
An correct evaluation can only be made having the film in hand.

George

Khrys · Jul 27, 2014

Hello,

I just ran into the same issue with an 8x10 sheet of HP5+. The wavy lines/striations DO NOT seem to have any negative impact (they don't appear on the scanned version, or in optical printing). I don't think it's a manufacturing issue, however I'm wondering if anyone had sent their negatives in for inspection to find out what the cause was (chemical residue, type of water (hard/soft), or user error)? I've never had any issues with Ilford products, and even though these lines don't seem to have an impact on the final image, I'm curious if there's a way to prevent them? I'm attaching some images of the neg with the light reflecting off the lines for examples. ...All that being said, I still love Ilford film, and always hope that one day there might be a sheet version of the SFX200 in 4x5 or 8x10..... (wishful thinking!).

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Nevsky187,

Firstly I am extremely sorry you have experienced a problem with an ILFORD Photo product as always we are happy to check out your film :

As to your statement 'this is clearly a manufacturing problem' that is absolutely your opinion to which of course you are absolutely entitled, I would suggest since we are the manufacturer I would be in a position to actually tell you if that was the case, but until I see the film I cannot and nor can anyone else. As of 10.33 GMT today we have four quality complaints from customers worldwide under investigation for HP5+ ( all formats ).

The number of 'Justified' complaints, in other words a manufacturing defect is quite frankly tiny, and usually we are able to determine what 'did' cause any issue fairly quickly.

As you have a problem similar or identical to another poster you have obviously formed your own opinion, I would suggest that the best course of action would be to follow some of the other posters advice and send the affected film to us where it goes through a process that means you will get a definitive answer regarding your quality complaint. If it does have a manufacturing fault you will told that and the film will also be replaced.

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Problem with Ilford HP5 in sheet and 120 (unexplained sratches)

snay1345

markbarendt

markbarendt

clayne

clayne

pentaxuser

clayne

MartinP

snay1345

250swb

snay1345

ChuckP

Ian Grant

Jim Noel

Simon R Galley

Misko78

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John Wiegerink

Misko78

Mark_S

John Wiegerink

nevsky187

Simon R Galley

railwayman3

georgegrosu

Khrys

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Problem with Ilford HP5 in sheet and 120 (unexplained sratches)

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