problem Kallitype with deep tones!

stefano_ber · Nov 11, 2020

good morning and sorry for my English!
I recently started printing Kallitypes after having had little satisfaction with the Van Dyke, and Ziatype
I would like to find out if someone can help me solve a problem on the quality of the result.
About my prints I am not satisfied is the not deep tones in the shadows and especially where the film is transparent.
I also tried to add 3ml /l dichromate in developer and I started developing films, Foma 100 8x10, in Pyro PMK because someone told me it increases the contrast in general, but it seems that the staining does not pass UV well and gives me this problem. Maybe it's also the not transparency of this kind of film? As a development of Kallitype I use Sodium Citrate + Ammonium Citrate 8min, citric acid 5 min, EDTA 5 min and finally fix 1 min.
I attached two photos of one negative and its relative print on Arches.
Anyone have any idea how I can improve the result?
Thank you so much!

nmp · Nov 11, 2020

Have you tried increasing the exposure time? Looking at the print, the darkest part of the image, the shorts, are not as dark as the border where there is no film - but the difference is not that great. Whites are not at their limit so increasing the exposure time should boost the Dmax without staining the highlights - I would think.

:Niranjan.

stefano_ber · Nov 11, 2020

nmp said:
Have you tried increasing the exposure time? Looking at the print, the darkest part of the image, the shorts, are not as dark as the border where there is no film - but the difference is not that great. Whites are not at their limit so increasing the exposure time should boost the Dmax without staining the highlights - I would think.

:Niranjan.

thank you Niranjan!
I think I would lose mid-tone brightness and risk losing the overall brightness of the print.
But I have just read in a text by Moersch that the clarification he advises only by 5min with citric acid in order not to fade it too much. I make it with both citric acid and EDTA 5 + 5 minutes, can that also be the reason for the fading?

grain elevator · Nov 11, 2020

Generally for neg/pos processes: If the border, which received more exposure, is dark enough, just the image isn't, then the solution is more exposure. If that would make the light tones too dark, you need to increase contrast; I don't know if there's a variable in the Kallitype process or if you need harder negatives.

nmp · Nov 12, 2020

stefano_ber said:
thank you Niranjan!
I think I would lose mid-tone brightness and risk losing the overall brightness of the print.
But I have just read in a text by Moersch that the clarification he advises only by 5min with citric acid in order not to fade it too much. I make it with both citric acid and EDTA 5 + 5 minutes, can that also be the reason for the fading?

Hi, Stefan:

You can do a test print with half with citric + edta and half without edta and see if that makes a difference. Fixer can reduce the density too. What fixer are you using...alkaline? I have not seen folks using dichromate in the sensitizer in any literature - wonder why that is. In general, dichromates in the sensitizer increase contrast in siderotypes so that might one variable that can be explored.

:Niranjan.

stefano_ber · Nov 12, 2020

nmp said:
Hi, Stefan:

You can do a test print with half with citric + edta and half without edta and see if that makes a difference. Fixer can reduce the density too. What fixer are you using...alkaline? I have not seen folks using dichromate in the sensitizer in any literature - wonder why that is. In general, dichromates in the sensitizer increase contrast in siderotypes so that might one variable that can be explored.

:Niranjan.

Hi Niranjan!
I put the dichromate in the developer not in sensitizer. For contrast control in Kallitype you can do only this thing.
So I tested other two prints without EDTA and only 4 minutes of clarification with distilled water and 3% citric acid finally I think is much improved! As in the Christopher James book I read, EDTA bath is not required with the developer Ammonium Citrate. In fact, after the development bath, the paper already seems enough clean of iron residues.
For those who want to see the result I have published it here:
www.instagram.com/stefano.bernardoni/

Unlike the previous one, I also slightly increased the contrast and consequently also the exposure.

nmp · Nov 12, 2020

stefano_ber said:
Hi Niranjan!
I put the dichromate in the developer not in sensitizer. For contrast control in Kallitype you can do only this thing.
So I tested other two prints without EDTA and only 4 minutes of clarification with distilled water and 3% citric acid finally I think is much improved! As in the Christopher James book I read, EDTA bath is not required with the developer Ammonium Citrate. In fact, after the development bath, the paper already seems enough clean of iron residues.
For those who want to see the result I have published it here:
www.instagram.com/stefano.bernardoni/

Unlike the previous one, I also slightly increased the contrast and consequently also the exposure.

That's a great improvement....I am glad it worked out. It is much harder to have a negative and make the process work for it than fix the process and adapt the negative for it (which is what I do.) so I am always impressed by people who do all analog alternative processes.

Your work is interesting, by the way.

:Niranjan.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 12, 2020

I had a heck of a time trying to print HP5 negatives, developed in Pyrocat-HD. It wasn't until I did a proper dev test was I able to make it work.... I should add that HP5 is not a good candidate for kallitype... I got my best results when I developed in DK-50, a high contrast developer. May I ask what paper you are using?

stefano_ber · Nov 12, 2020

nmp said:
That's a great improvement....I am glad it worked out. It is much harder to have a negative and make the process work for it than fix the process and adapt the negative for it (which is what I do.) so I am always impressed by people who do all analog alternative processes.

Your work is interesting, by the way.

:Niranjan.

thank you Niranjan!
Yes, is very difficult find a way to get a good quality starting with a analog film! I don't love digital negative, I find it unnatural way to use these techniques.
I think have a good negative, developed ad hoc, is a good start point! but is not so simple.

stefano_ber · Nov 12, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
I had a heck of a time trying to print HP5 negatives, developed in Pyrocat-HD. It wasn't until I did a proper dev test was I able to make it work.... I should add that HP5 is not a good candidate for kallitype... I got my best results when I developed in DK-50, a high contrast developer. May I ask what paper you are using?

Hi Andrew!
I use only Foma and Fp4 film. As developer someone advice me PyrocatHD in 2:2:100 dilution. In this moment I'm using PMK. I don't know DK-50. Where I can find some informations?
thank you!

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 12, 2020

stefano_ber said:
Hi Andrew!
I use only Foma and Fp4 film. As developer someone advice me PyrocatHD in 2:2:100 dilution. In this moment I'm using PMK. I don't know DK-50. Where I can find some informations?
thank you!

Well I do know that FP4 is a good candidate for kallitype, but no experience with Foma films. I mix DK-50 from scratch.

Water (52C or 125F)
500ml
Kodak Elon Dev Agent (Metol)
2.5 grams
Sodium Slfite, dessicated
30.0 grams
Hydroquinone
2.5 grams
Kodalk (Sodium Metaborate)
10.0 grams
Potassium Bromide
0.5 grams
Add cold water to make 1 litre

I dilute it 1+1.

stefano_ber · Nov 13, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
Well I do know that FP4 is a good candidate for kallitype, but no experience with Foma films. I mix DK-50 from scratch.

Water (52C or 125F)
500ml
Kodak Elon Dev Agent (Metol)
2.5 grams
Sodium Slfite, dessicated
30.0 grams
Hydroquinone
2.5 grams
Kodalk (Sodium Metaborate)
10.0 grams
Potassium Bromide
0.5 grams
Add cold water to make 1 litre

I dilute it 1+1.

Thank you Andrew! it's strange that such a low dose of Hydroquinone can give you a strong contrast!
so you don't advice Pirocat HD for this process?
I use Arches paper and sometimes Hahnemuhle...

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 13, 2020

stefano_ber said:
Thank you Andrew! it's strange that such a low dose of Hydroquinone can give you a strong contrast!
so you don't advice Pirocat HD for this process?
I use Arches paper and sometimes Hahnemuhle...

Pyrocat-HD will work fine with FP4 but I don't know if it will with Foma.

Tom Taylor · Nov 14, 2020

You can also "dodge and burn" just like with silver prints. Takes a little forethought and more time in the sun.

Thomas

Peter Schrager · Nov 15, 2020

pyrocat works fine with foma and very well with alternative process. I only use the 100 speed
my I ask why you did not have luck with Ziatype? there is a trick to making them. feel free to reach out if you want more info

ProfessorC1983 · Nov 15, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
I should add that HP5 is not a good candidate for kallitype

Why is this? Based on the characteristic curves (and my very limited experience) it seems like HP5 is a better candidate than FP4 to get the higher DR required for most alt processes? Or does kallitype have specific requirements I'm not aware of?

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 15, 2020

ProfessorC1983 said:
Why is this? Based on the characteristic curves (and my very limited experience) it seems like HP5 is a better candidate than FP4 to get the higher DR required for most alt processes? Or does kallitype have specific requirements I'm not aware of?

HP5 is okay for moderate expansion. When you increase development time to reach required DR for kallitype, or carbon transfer, the Dmin builds up too much density. Increasing kallitype exposure time to print through that only results in solarisation... It's somewhat self-masking. By using a non conventional, high contrast developer, one can skirt around this... Like DK-50. FP4 expands very well without this issue.

stefano_ber · Nov 15, 2020

Tom Taylor said:
You can also "dodge and burn" just like with silver prints. Takes a little forethought and more time in the sun.

Thomas

Yes of course! I already apply these techniques, but is not enough. it's a problem above all for the contrast that can only be solved with dichromate, overexposure and a more overdeveloped negative

stefano_ber · Nov 15, 2020

Peter Schrager said:
pyrocat works fine with foma and very well with alternative process. I only use the 100 speed
my I ask why you did not have luck with Ziatype? there is a trick to making them. feel free to reach out if you want more info

Thank you Peter! I use Foma 100 too, in this moment only with PMK developer and the incomplete transparency of his triacetate plus the PMK staining which does not help!
Ziatype gave me a lot of problems of inconstant result cause of it is very sensitive to moisture! therefore it was necessary to create a system to give the paper a constant humidity. Too complicated! but if you have any suggestions for good results I will be happy to read them!

ProfessorC1983 · Nov 15, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
HP5 is okay for moderate expansion. When you increase development time to reach required DR for kallitype, or carbon transfer, the Dmin builds up too much density. Increasing kallitype exposure time to print through that only results in solarisation... It's somewhat self-masking. By using a non conventional, high contrast developer, one can skirt around this... Like DK-50. FP4 expands very well without this issue.

Appreciate the explanation! I've clearly got a lot of testing to do.

problem Kallitype with deep tones!

stefano_ber

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