prints darkening in fixer

Photo Engineer · Oct 21, 2011

CJ;

If the color changes after what you think is complete fixation then this is unusual. It indicates the fixer is exhausted. If it takes place in the water rinse, the fixer before completion or suchlike, then it is probably fingerprints. Remember that finger oil can retard development and fixation. It is resistant to water, developer and fixer.

PE

MattKing · Oct 21, 2011

Could the "darkening" actually be due to the image clearing? By that I mean the shadows becoming "unveiled" as the unexposed and undeveloped silver salts are converted by the fixer into soluble and transparent silver complexes.

cjbecker · Oct 21, 2011

Sorry I ment to say after rinse, but you cleared that one up also.

Thank you soooooo much.

Steve Smith · Oct 22, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
if the color changes after what you think is complete fixation then this is unusual.

There's a word for my Americanisms thread!

Steve.

Jerevan · Oct 22, 2011

Steve,

could one say that you have a fixation to americanisms?

Ian Grant · Oct 22, 2011

MattKing said:
Could the "darkening" actually be due to the image clearing? By that I mean the shadows becoming "unveiled" as the unexposed and undeveloped silver salts are converted by the fixer into soluble and transparent silver complexes.

I'd agree. This does happen and is more noticeable with some papers than others.

Actually when this doesn't occur it's a tell-tale sign the fixers exhausting.

Ian

Steve Smith · Oct 22, 2011

Ian Grant said:
I'd agree. This does happen and is more noticeable with some papers than others.

I think I saw that happen a few weeks ago. In fact, I thought I was imagining it!

Steve.

Rick A · Oct 22, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Usually, it is the Sodium Chloride in your sweat!

That is why you should NOT touch unprocessed film or paper. Although it is more evident with papers.

PE

One of the main reasons I teach newbies to use tongs on prints up to 8x10 and gloves for larger sizes. Nothing more disgusting than fingerprints on an otherwise perfect print.

Monophoto · Oct 22, 2011

I think the issue here involves three factors:

1. Development time is short - and the prints may not be fully developed in two minutes. Prints should be developed to completion - and that may take 3-5 minutes. It may be necessary to shorten the exposure as the development time is increased.

2. Unexposed and undeveloped silver is removed by the fixer. This is called 'clearing' and visually, the print appears to be slightly darker (and sharper).

3. OP is trying to evaluate the prints under safelight. That's always a problem. The proper way to evaluate prints is to process to completion, and then turn on the white light for evaluation.

Ian Grant · Oct 22, 2011

Monophoto said:
I think the issue here involves three factors:

1. Development time is short - and the prints may not be fully developed in two minutes. Prints should be developed to completion - and that may take 3-5 minutes. It may be necessary to shorten the exposure as the development time is increased.

No prints like films are not developed to completion, and the development time can be varied with certain papers (warm tone) to achieve different tones/colours.

With Bromide papers there is a minimum time to achieve a good D-max that's usually 2 minutes at 20°C but would be shorter at higher temperatures.

Over development leeds to base fogging and poorer tonality.

Ian

Rick A · Oct 22, 2011

Prints are not developed to "completion", but to optimum tonality. Completion would be to total blackness. Development times are determined by several factors. Temperture, dilution, and the paper emulsion itself to name a few. Some developers such as Ethol LPD are not affected by dilution, which affects tone, but is affected by temperture. Finding the optimum developing time, exposure time, and temperture control combined with subjective personal preference makes for the perfect print. Arresting development immediatly is an aid to locking the final outcome in place, and (IMO)is best accomplished with an acid stop bath. This allows the fixer to perform its function unhindered, also prolonging the life of the fixer. The Type of paper, whether FB or RC, determines the times required in each solution. Once the optimum time in developer is determined, time in stop is either short(10-30 secs for RC) or long(30-60 secs for FB), followed by a proper fix, preferrably a two bath set-up for FB paper, splitting time equally between first and second bath. One other step that is oft times overlooked is a proper drain time between solutions, 5-10 seconds should be sufficient.

What I have described is basic darkroom print developing 101. Following a proper step-by-step workflow assures that there are no mishaps, and if something should arise, it will be easy to identify where the problem occures from.

Steve Smith · Oct 22, 2011

Rick A said:
Prints are not developed to "completion", but to optimum tonality. Completion would be to total blackness.

Whilst this is technically true, in reality, development gets to a point where it slows down considerably such that you would not perceive any change if you let it continue sitting in the developer for as long as it ha already been in it.

For all intents and purposes, it can be considered to be to completion.

Steve.

Ian Grant · Oct 22, 2011

Steve Smith said:
Whilst this is technically true, in reality, development gets to a point where it slows down considerably such that you would not perceive any change if you let it continue sitting in the developer for as long as it ha already been in it.

For all intents and purposes, it can be considered to be to completion.

Steve.

By that time Steve you've gone well past the optimum development time.

Ian

brucemuir · Oct 22, 2011

Rick A said:
One of the main reasons I teach newbies to use tongs on prints up to 8x10 and gloves for larger sizes. Nothing more disgusting than fingerprints on an otherwise perfect print.

Not disagreeing Rick but you do need to be careful with tongs as well.
I recently kinked the RC paper on a keeper and I know it can happen with Fibre just as bad.

Photo Engineer · Oct 22, 2011

In my long experience printing, the problems with finger prints or tong kinks were about equal and so that is why I recommend the use of rubber gloves. No finger prints and no kinks but if you don't dry your gloves well, you can get water spots.

See! There is no perfect solution! But, rubber gloves (or vinyl) are just that much closer to perfect.

PE

Bill Burk · Oct 22, 2011

I think in this case OP and PE have diagnosed the problem as development contaminated alkaline fixer.

Having only ever used acid fixers, I had no experience with the "monobath" problem.

For print handling, I use store-brand vinyl disposable gloves (the home-made wooden tongs in my darkroom portrait are mostly for show).

They work but lately I am not happy with the cheap disposables because they develop pinholes too easily. I have convenient running water and towels, so I wash and dry thoroughly before getting a sheet of paper.

But when there is a pinhole, guess what will be dripping from the holes... That's right - fixer. Echh. So I check that my fingers inside the gloves are dry before I pick up a sheet of paper. It's really funny because most of the pinholes come when I put the negative in the negative carrier.

Ian Grant · Oct 22, 2011

Bill Burk said:
Having only ever used acid fixers, I had no experience with the "monobath" problem.

I seem to remember being the person who described this as a Monobath problem (in a different thread)

While I'm quite happy to use a plain water stop with films (which is a recommended option by Ilford, Kodak etc) there's no way I'd not use an acid stop bath with papers where the carry over of developer is continual and only a very wasteful water wash would work as well, no company recommends a water stop for papers for normal use.

Ian

Ian

Ken · Oct 22, 2011

I had this same scenario happening to me though the chemicals were different (Ethol LPD, Ilford Hypam).
The contrast of the prints would change in the fixer. It almost seemed as if I had just put them into another developer that would darken/change the contrast within seconds (the prints did not get muddy though). I am still unsure why this happened as I have been using this combination for years (along with indicator stop). However, I noticed that this was only happening in the winter when my darkroom was cold. Not sure if it was an issue with the developer or fixer, but either way, my guess is that it had to do with the temperature (temp. of chemicals possibly). Since the prints were okay, I never really bothered to investigate further. It's getting colder here so we'll see what this winter brings!
Maybe this helps (?)
My best,
Ken

Photo Engineer · Oct 22, 2011

Yes, Bill, and that is why I use rubber gloves instead of vinyl. I find them more durable.

Best of luck.

PE

Ian Grant · Oct 22, 2011

Ken said:
I had this same scenario happening to me though the chemicals were different (Ethol LPD, Ilford Hypam).
The contrast of the prints would change in the fixer. It almost seemed as if I had just put them into another developer that would darken/change the contrast within seconds (the prints did not get muddy though). I am still unsure why this happened as I have been using this combination for years (along with indicator stop). However, I noticed that this was only happening in the winter when my darkroom was cold. Not sure if it was an issue with the developer or fixer, but either way, my guess is that it had to do with the temperature (temp. of chemicals possibly). Since the prints were okay, I never really bothered to investigate further. It's getting colder here so we'll see what this winter brings!
Maybe this helps (?)
My best,
Ken

Most people use a dev tray heater and fix at room temperature, this can mean the fixing is a bit slower at times.

If you make a print then cut it in half and develop for the same time, leave half in the stop bath and fix the other you'd see a big difference in contrast as well as density even under safelight conditions, once in room lighting the unfixed half would slowly darken, it's not too fast though to compare both halves.

This is why you cannot evaluate a print accurately in the developer snatching it when it looks raedy.

Ian

Worker 11811 · Oct 22, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
In my long experience printing, the problems with finger prints or tong kinks were about equal and so that is why I recommend the use of rubber gloves. No finger prints and no kinks but if you don't dry your gloves well, you can get water spots.

See! There is no perfect solution! But, rubber gloves (or vinyl) are just that much closer to perfect.

PE

I wear blue Nitrile gloves and I use a bamboo chopstick that has been whittled down to a blunt point using a pencil sharpener.

Slip the chopstick under the print in the tray then lift the corner up high enough so that you can pinch the paper between your thumb and the stick. As you lift the paper out of the tray, the chopstick serves to support it so as to avoid wrinkling or creasing. It also helps you place the paper right side up in the next tray. Then you can use the chopstick to carefully push the paper under the surface of the liquid.

I often wear a Nitrile glove only on my left hand. The right hand goes in my back pocket so it will always be dry. That way I can handle fresh paper with full tactile sensation and I don't have to worry about getting developer or fixer soaked fingerprints on my pictures.

Chopsticks are cheap. You can buy them by the dozen for just a couple-few bucks. I keep a bunch of pre-sharpened chopsticks in a beaker full of water, sitting at the back of my developing table. If I drop one or accidentally cross-contaminate one I can drop it into the beaker and pull out a clean one. Just don't forget to change the water every once in a while.

That's how I handle my prints, avoid cross contamination and cut my expenditures on gloves in half.

brucemuir · Oct 22, 2011

I could never get too used to gloves.
I like to feel for the emulsion side just in case the paper got inverted in the box at some point.

I should add I sometimes cut paper from rolls and will use gloves then but as hard as I try to keep the paper face up. I still get paranoid.

Usually with the roll paper you can tell because it will be curled a bit but not always.

Photo Engineer · Oct 22, 2011

It really does not matter. If it works for you, it works! And if it works, then use it!

PE

Rick A · Oct 22, 2011

brucemuir said:
Not disagreeing Rick but you do need to be careful with tongs as well.
I recently kinked the RC paper on a keeper and I know it can happen with Fibre just as bad.

I've found that you really have to work hard to kink anything 8x10 and smaller, even single weight paper is managable. I tell my students never buy bamboo tongs, the plastic ones I use are wide, lift is from a corner only with a rolling motion, then allow print to drain for a few seconds. I also hang prints for half a minute or so between the final fix and a holding tray of water, I don't have running water in my DR.

I also use tongs to lift a corner of a print to get ahold of them with a rubber glove on. 11x14 and larger prints require gloves, you're almost guaranteed a crescent or worse otherwise.

Doremus Scudder · Oct 23, 2011

Am I the only one who likes his rubber-tipped bamboo tongs for prints up to 11x14 and my bare hands for larger prints? Gee, I never get kinks, fingerprints or anything like that. I've tried plastic tongs and hate them. When developing single smaller prints, I use the the tongs, lifting the print by a corner to drain and transfer. I agitate by gently pushing down the surface of the print with the rubber tips of the tongs... No marks, ever.

For larger prints and batches, I use either two tongs, one in each hand, or my clean, bare hands (I'm not using amidol or glycin). Works fine with no marks. I really don't see how some can damage prints so easily... Maybe my graded papers are more bullet-proof

Sometimes I get some emulsion peeling when I'm shuffling a several prints at a time through all the chemicals, but only where my fingers constantly rub the print surface, and that is always limited to the white border areas which I trim anyway...

As for the monobath problem, I've had it with film and alkaline fixers, even with a water rinse in between. I now use an acid stop for everything.

I, too, observe prints changing in the fixer as they clear, but this does not seem to be the OP's problem. His significant darkening is likely extra development as described by PE.

My 2 cents,

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

prints darkening in fixer

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