Printing Woes - Streaks on white borders, and not understanding the seconds exposure

[ted_smith]

My printing woes continue...:-(

A few questions, if I may

1) I've created my RC print, washed it for 3 or 4 minutes under running water - the white border round the edge looks great. Next day, after it's dried, the white border has grey little streaks all over it? What gives? (This is the case for about a dozen prints that I have done)

2) I have an old Ilfospeed 400HS enlarger. The controller unit has a dial for the seconds of exposure. I am trying to understand whether these are the same (in theory) to the exposure of film in-camera, i.e. the longer you expose it the brighter (overexposed) the print becomes? However, this does not appear to be the case. In many examples, if I exposure it for 10 seconds (which I gather is the default in most instances), the print is very pale and washed out. If I expose it for 20, it might look OK. But then with other pictures, 20 seconds is horribly too dark and I might have to use 5 or 6 seconds for it to look right. I have no real idea why though. Why for some frames do you need 5 seconds, others 10, others 15, and others 20 etc. Can anyone explain to me how the seconds exposure works and whether does or does not differ to the rule of exposing film in camera.

It migth be usefult to know that the films are Fujifilm Neopan 400NC and Ilford FP4

Ta

Ted

 

[Jean Noire]

Hi,
Different negatives will probably require different print exposure times, this is usually established by making a test strip for each negative. This is fairly well explained on the Ilford Photo website. Have a look there to start with. Don't know what the streaks are at present.
Regards
John.

 

[Herzeleid]

1) Are you using an easel?, If not my wild guess is there might be slight exposure on the edges.Or are you sure you are fixing enough because when you leave the unfixed paper in the light it turns gray. 3-4 minutes sounds short too me but the more experienced guys know it better.

2)Longer the exposure darker the print. Timing is dependent on the density of the negative, darker the negative, overall you need more exposure time for the paper, so it is never the same for different scenes. The paper is acting like negative if you take it out to the light when you develop it it is completely black, like an overexposed negative. But the thing is when you put a negative in the enlarger the light falling on the paper is negated, but exposing is similar, longer you expose you get darker pictures (overexposed negative - darker ). I am sorry if that is confusing I am somewhat new to this stuff myself, I don't know how to say it better.

 

[jovo]

Ted, paper darkens the longer it is exposed to light. There is no "default" exposure time which is why one uses test strips to determine exposure. (There are optimum f stops, however, which are usually about 1 to 3 stops down from wide open.)

Make a test by placing a strip of paper in the easel and exposing it for, say..8 seconds. Then use a card to cover a portion of it, and expose for 2 more seconds, then cover and expose the rest 2 seconds more, and so on. Develop, stop, and fix. Then using not too bright light, determine which time looked best and make a work print at that time. From there you can decide what further steps to take (dodging, burning in, flashing, split grading etc.)

You really need to get a good book to help you. Les McLean, Bruce Barnbaum, and others have published excellent guides to darkroom work. Get yourself a copy and dig in.

BTW, try not to feel discouraged. It is NORMAL for one to take a while to learn to print successfully. Good luck.

 

[Anon Ymous]

1) Are you using an easel?, If not my wild guess is there might be slight exposure on the edges.Or are you sure you are fixing enough because when you leave the unfixed paper in the light it turns gray. 3-4 minutes sounds short too me but the more experienced guys know it better.

2)Longer the exposure darker the print. Timing is dependent on the density of the negative, darker the negative, overall you need more exposure time for the paper, so it is never the same for different scenes...

Hello Ted, Serdar;

1) 3-4 minutes are certainly more than enough for RC prints, as Ted mentioned. Actually, it's probably an overkill. Inadequate fixation could have been a reason, but Ted mentioned streaks. I had a case of badly fixed prints (on Ilford MG IV RC) and they turned to a pinkish gray tone. Ted, a scan of a print might be helpfull.

2) Ted, as Serdar said, you need to treat each exposure as a different case. You need to make test strips for each print you make. There's only one way to use the same exposure time for different shots and that requires a contact print. Let's say that you had taken some shots at the same time and place. Have a look at the contact print and compare the shots you're interested in. If the density looks the same, then you *might* be able to use the same exposure for different shots. I've done it and it worked, but I was in a rush! It was just a quick and dirty aproach! Even if the density looks the same at the contact print, you may actually need to dodge/burn. Or you might want to make it a bit darker/lighter, who knows?

 

[jp80874]

I don't see mention of what RC paper. It might be helpful to read the manufacturer's spec sheet. For instance Ilford RC http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20061301948131639.pdf.
Depending on the mix or dilution you need to fix Ilford RC paper for 30 sec or 1 min. How long did you fix?

John Powers

 

[Akki14]

Grey streaks in the white borders sounds like what I get if I have a light leak in my dark room and some light is bouncing around in the tray. Not sure why you wouldn't see it when you washed it, though. I only ever got that when working in my darkroom during the day and I forgot to doublecheck my gaffa tape seal around the window (it eventually goes a little less sticky in parts and comes away). Sit in your darkroom with the safelights off for at least 5 minutes. Let your eyes get used to the light, even close them for that time, then open them and see if you can see any obvious light leaks. If it's not that, double-check your safe lights are safe for the distance you're using them at, especially near the trays.

 

[ted_smith]

Paper : Ilford 5"x7" MGIV Multigrade RC De Lux.

Safelight : a red light about 1.5 meters from the enlarger.

Scans : OK guys...here are some scans. They have not been adjusted digitally at all - just scanned in and exported as JPEGs so that you can see the differences.

Image 1 : 12 seconds, wide open lens, Fuji Neopan 400NC

Image 2 : 10 seconds, f4, +1/2 on the contrast, Ilford FP4

Image 3 : 5 seconds, f4, 2 on contrast, Ilford FP4

The first image is almost spot on (by my eye), but the frame issue as ruined it. The other two, especially image 2, is very pasty and washed out, but then, so was the version produced by my lab, so maybe the negative itself is poorly exposed (was shot on an F80 using built in flash in a hospital).

 

[bdial]

If the streaks only show up after washing and some time, it's most likely inadequate fixing, which would be caused by too little fix time, over-diluted fix, exhausted or contaminated fix.

The time for the exposure is the same conceptually as in the camera, just in much longer intervals. Doubling the time gives you one stop worth more exposure, halving it gives you one stop less. As Jovo said the ideal f/stop for your lens is 1 - 3 stops down from it's maximum, enlarging is basically an aperture-priority exercise, where the f/stop is fixed, and you adjust time to get a good exposure.

Ideally, your exposures should hover around the "minimum time to maximum black" time which the exposure necessary to get the paper's maximum black through blank film. Getting there consistantly not necessarily easy though, and depends on your exposure and processing technique for the film.
But there will always be negs that require more or less time than the so-called ideal to make a good print. If you can make prints that match your vision, then don't worry about it any further, otherwise use it as a learning experience and keep working at it.

Our posts overlapped. The paper looks like it might be fogged. The shot with the black streak in the border is certainly fogged.

If it is fogging it will be there when you wash.
If it isn't there during washing then I'd suspect the fix. Are you doing the wash in white light? (that would be the usual situation).
How old is the paper?
There some streaking that looks like inadequate agitation in the developer as well.
How long are you developing, stopping and fixing, and what kind of fix?

 

[Anon Ymous]

The "streaks" look like they continue to the exposed area.

 

[ted_smith]

The paper is only a few months old.

The fixer is a 1 litre bottle of Ilofrd Rapid Fixer, and is the same age as the paper, but, it has been used to develop about 12 rolls of film, and about 30 prints. How often can you use a 1 litre bottle of fixer - how far does it go? If it is the fixer, this might also help explain why I am getting streaks negatives when I do home processing (a couple of threads on that have posted here and the assumption has been light leaks, but perhaps it's the fixer too)

The developer is Ilford Ilfotec DD-X. It says to mix '4+1' which I take to mean 4 parts water to 1 part developer, e.g. 400ml of water would need 100ml developer ADDING to it. Is that right?

The border streaks look white as white can be when I am washing the print and still look white an hour or two later. It's not until the next day that they look like this. I am washing the prints in my bathroom and it uses a normal 60Watt lightbulb.

My Darkroom is perhaps not as dark as it needs to be. It's a converted attic bedroom with a flight of stairs (proper stairs as opposed to steps) that lead up to it, but there is no door currently. To solve the light issue from that I make sure the lights on the landing and all bedrooms are turned off, and I only do this work at night. I close all the curtains, and turn off all electrical items that might have light emitting LEDs etc. I read that for printing (not necessarily developing though) that should be OK, but again, perhaps not.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Ted, first of all, you'd better not use the same fixer solution for film and paper. Make 2 different solutions. After all, different dilutions are recommended for film/paper. IIRC, it's 1+4 for film and 1+9 for paper. Your fixer is probably exhausted, but you'd better tell us what the quantity of the solution is and at what dilution. You can get an average figure about what how many prints you can get fixed by reading the manufacturer's data sheet. Your assumption about developer's dilution is correct.

 

[ted_smith]

you'd better not use the same fixer solution for film and paper

- D'Oh!! Thanks a lot - that did not occur to me.

IIRC, it's 1+4 for film and 1+9 for paper.

Massive D'OH!!! I didn't even realise it had to be diluted...I have been using neat!!!!!!!! I guess that's where I have been going wrong? Not only have I been using it neat for prints, but I've been using it neat for my negatives as well, which are also streaking. I have just read the label and yes, it says "5 LITRES (1+4), 10 LITRES (1+9)" I don't believe it. I am an idiot of gigantic proportions. I never recall reading in the 'B & W Home Darkroom" guide that I read somewhere about diluting the fixer though. Still, always read the label I guess. So, is it fair to say that my not diluting the fixer is the cause of this problem at least?

 

[Anon Ymous]

Ooops!

 

[Ed Sukach]

What I see here is a 'migration' of chemistry through the edges of the paper. Due to an excessive time, the chemistry "capilaries" between the paper base and the emulsion. Removal becomes difficult in washing. It would not be noticeable immediately, but in time, the effect of residual developer or fix would be noticeable.
Fixing of RC paper does not require much time - IIRC, Ilford specifieas 30 seconds in their fixer - from experience, I've lengthened that to 60 seconds. -
Look carefully at the edges of the print - especially those most affected - for any signs of delamination.

 

[bdial]

According to Ilford, 1 litre of fixer working solution, is good for 24 rolls of 35 mm rolls (36 exposures each), or 80 sheets of 8x10. The normal film dilution is 1:4 and for paper it's 1:9. Theoretically you are within its capacity, but if your prints are turning dark after processing, they're not getting fixed well enough. The cause might not be capacity, but could be contamination, or perhaps technique.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

I'd start off with some fresh fix, with separate batches for your film and paper. Make sure you agitate the paper or film when fixing.

If the light conditions might be suspect, make sure that you only have one sheet out at a time, and then double-check that the paper is closed up before you turn on any white lights. There are lots of threads in here about safelight testing, it would be a worthwhile exercise to test your safelight, and perhaps another test without the safelights to test whether your space really is dark.

 

[Anon Ymous]

If I recall correctly, undiluted fixer is not as effective as when diluted. Some water is transered from the stop bath to the fixer though. Because of the PE coating, there will be some water streaks on the print. The grey areas where probably the dryer areas of the print. There wasn't much water to dilute the fixer, so it was less effective. I also assume that you didn't do much agitation. Is that correct?

 

[msdemanche]

I would also mention the fixer reacting to the the stop. If you have a weak stop then the developer is still working in some places and the fixer reacts, normally these areas look some what brownish along with the grey. You also need to think about your safe light, sometimes a too bright safe light actually flashes the paper some giving some slight exposure even before you hit the enlarger timer.
Your dilluted fixer is better, and you might what to buy some hypo check or make up some yourself if you have raw chemicals. I am not near my darkroom cookbook right now, or I would give you the receipt. Maybe some one else has it handy. Two drops of check, and if it goes milky the fixer is exhausted.
Michel

 

[David Brown]

I didn't even realise it had to be diluted...

Still, always read the label I guess.

Always!

You might read up on washing procedures, too.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

A few things.

The fixer does not have to be diluted more to be used with paper. It takes a shorter amount of time at 1+4 than 1+9, and you increase the capacity of the working solution, obviously. I test my fixer with a piece of film that I hold with a tong and dunk it in the rapid fixer (at 1+4 for both film and paper) and it should clear very quickly, within 30 seconds. With Ilford Hypam, for instance, you fix RC paper for 30 seconds in a 1+4 dilution.

You say you wash your prints under running water. You don't say if you use a tray or similar device. Just holding the print under running water isn't going to cut it. I do this before I use a tray or a dedicated washer, so I don't put too much fixer into the tray/washer.

You need to insure that your stop bath is good. I use Kodak indicator stop bath, at the recommended dilution. It'll last a good long time and will indicate when it approaches being spent. Stay in the stop bath for about 20 seconds.
I use a neutral pH fixer, so I have a water bath after the stop bath, so I don't affect the pH of the fixer too much. It's not necessary, but it helps increase the life of the fixer.

Your washing sequence is really important. Using a tray means that you have the whole print, back and front, immersed in water during the entire washing cycle. If I were you I would also invest in some hypo clearing agent. That makes the washing sequence really fast with RC papers.
It says to wash RC prints for 5 minutes. I wash them for 10 minutes. I don't know if I'm being anal about it, but if I spend a fair amount of time in the darkroom creating a print, I'm going to make sure that it's washed properly too. Too much time invested in printing will otherwise be lost.

John Voss makes a good recommendation. A little bit of work, reading a printing book with documented procedures, is going to save you a lot of grief in the long run.

I am not a master printer, but I've been doing this for a while now. In the beginning I did the same mistakes you're doing now. Read the book.

- Thomas

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Re-read the thread again, and using the fixer 'concentrated' - that's probably not good...

Still, try to pay particular attention to each step of the process. All of them are important.

- Thomas

 

[fschifano]

Ohhhh... Now that you mention that you haven't diluted the fixer, it all becomes clear. But first things first. I noticed on a couple of the attachments that there are very dark black marks on the right edge. That looks like a light strike to me. I've had it happen, and that's exactly how it looks. The rest could easily be because you haven't diluted the fixer and here's why.

The thiosulfate used in the fixer makes the unexposed and undeveloped silver salts in the film or paper water soluble. Without enough water, they don't dissolve and wash away. So you still have unexposed and undeveloped silver salts in the film and/or paper. These will darken over time on their own upon exposure to light.

As for dilution, it is perfectly ok to use the higher, in your case 1+9, paper strength dilution for both film and paper. I've been using "paper strength" working solution fixer for everything for longer than I'd care to remember and there is no problem with the practice. The working strength fixer's capacity is reduced, but so is the concentration of potentially harmful fixing byproducts. Complete washing goes a little faster, and the whole process runs a little more cleanly. It is, however, important to use different batches of fixer for paper and film. The batch used for paper picks up a lot of dust and other contaminants like lint from fiber based papers and you don't want that stuck to the emulsion on your film.

 

[ted_smith]

SUCCESSS, SUCCESS, SUCCESS!!!

I cracked it last night (well, only because you guys helped!). I did the following :

1) Checked my darkroom for light areas. There's 3 windows, and one has a bad curtain which, when I looked at it, was letting a bit of light in from the night sky, so I drapped a black cloth over it and that made the room instantly more dark. I then noticed that there were two green lights emitting light - one on the front of my PC and another on the side of my mini fridge that I keep my film it. I blocked both of these.

2) I diluted the fixer 1+4

3) I diluted the stop bath 1+19 - yes chaps, you've guessed it. I was using stop bath neat as well!!! Having read the label I was horrified to learn that that too was supposed to be diluted.

4) I moved my safelight a little further away.

The result of this are below - 3 prints with nice clear borders (other than an odd little black blob that appears on every print - not sure why - it's the bit just under the easel guide)

Image 1 :

Image 2 :

Image 3 :

I hope you all agree that that seems to have done the trick? Now all I need to do is to work out how to get blacks properly black and white properly white, but I guess that's another discussion thread...anyone know of a good 'How to Doge and Burn' guide?

Thanks everyone for your help. APUG shows yet again that it is a place full of true masters.

Ted

 

[ted_smith]

fschifano - thanks a lot - looks like our replies crossed - the light leak you mention is even more clear on the three above, now that the border is not contaiminated by the streaks.

The baby, by the way, is my newborn with my wife, in case anyone was wondering

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

The black 'blob' is probably from a light leak in the packaging.

Your highlights look good. Use your filtration filters to control contrast. Dodging and burning is easy. Make a square, a rectangle, and a circle out of one of the black plastic bags your paper comes in. Tape that to a penny and fasten it to a piece of steel wire. That's for dodging small to large areas - the closer to the enlarging lens you are, the more area the tools will dodge. Be sure to move the tools around to make a smooth 'edge' of your dodging area. To burn - I usually start with opaque black paper with another of the black plastic photo paper bags, and if I have to cut holes in it for certain shapes, I will. But usually it's enough to bend it and angle it to create various shapes, such as a half circle, and S-shape, straight line, or whatever.
That's one you learn by doing, takes a minute to learn, and a good while to master.