Printing with xtol and tf-5 in rotary drums

dlorygayz · Sep 13, 2018

So I'm trying to keep my darkroom system very minimal because i don't have a dedicated space. I'm printing with xtol because I have a history skin allergies, I'm sure tf-5 isn't great health wise but I'm doing what I can. I'd like to have just one developer to deal with, I'm on septic system and nothing goes down the drain except rinse water.

I just wanted to throw out a few questions and see if anyone can spot any flaws in my system before i get stuck in a routine. Keep in mind I'm using beseler developing drums, 8x10 and 11x14 on a uniroller base.

1. Xtol - I'm prepared for longer times and some testing and planning on using this as one shot.

2. Distilled water stop, one shot. I've read alot about tf-5 and a running water stop, drums make that impossible, does it have more to do with build up of developer in your stop tray, or something else? Am I good with my method or do I need a different approach?

3. Tf-5 fix, I've yet to use this fixer, and maybe I'm reading the mixing instructions wrong but it looks to me that it can be measured and mixed as needed from the bottle of concentrate vs mixing the entire 1 liter bottle to make a gallon of fixer, please correct me if I'm wrong.

4. Wash in tray in sink. I don't have a print washer yet so this step is pretty straight forward.

That's pretty much it, just covering my bases any input is greatly appreciated.

Bob Carnie · Sep 13, 2018

If you are printing paper why are you using a film developer.??

Rudeofus · Sep 13, 2018

Film developers will eventually develop photographic paper, but they take a lot of time to do that. Since you apparently try to avoid Hydroquinone, I recommend you get an Ascorbic Acid based paper developer such as the EcoPro series from LegacyPro, these are available from FreeStyle Photographic Supplies.

bernard_L · Sep 13, 2018

What precisely are you allergic to? Allergy to Metol is fairly common, a reason for using Phenidone-Hydroquinone developer. Like (just an example) PQ-U, a common paper (mostly) developer.

dlorygayz · Sep 13, 2018

Okay the replies are appreciated, but im looking for input on the process outlined, not my reason for having using it. yes I'm aware there are options, but this I where I'm at right now, and what I'm asking for help with.

Ian Grant · Sep 13, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
If you are printing paper why are you using a film developer.??

It's possible to use film developer for prints with some minor adjustment, there were articles on it published during WWII. Essentially you need to raise the pH by adding Sodium or Potassium Carbonate. It was done because photo supplies were very limited here in the UK in the amateur market during the war, most production went to the military.

Ian

MattKing · Sep 13, 2018

I don't know whether you will ever achieve suitable results from X-Tol as a print developer.
Print developers tend to be much more active than film developers. They are designed to develop prints to what is essentially completion, whereas film developers are designed to develop film to an intermediate amount, in order to fine tune contrast.
You might try to increase the concentration of X-Tol as much as possible, but I'm not sure there is much room to adjust that, as it is difficult to get everything into solution if you are aiming for increased concentration. I expect you can probably mix X-Tol to a 4 litre volume, instead of the usual 5 litre volume, but I don't know whether you can go much further.
I'll let the chemists here consider whether there is anything you could add to X-Tol to increase its activity, without causing an allergenic reaction.
Is your reason for using distilled water as a stop that you are concerned about your fixer? Otherwise, I would suggest that if a water stop is what you want to use, tap water should normally be fine.
Whatever you end up doing, I wish you the best of luck.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 13, 2018

I've used Xtol as a paper developer and in the long run it is costlier...If I was printing in the darkroom everyday, I probably wouldn't use Xtol. $$! I was using it at 1+5 and developing fibre papers for 3 to 5 minutes. I never could get DMAX like I could with Ilford MG developer... For some images the Xtol was quite nice. I've printed some of my HIE images this way.
Also for print washing, I suggest using the Ilford method of filling a tray, agitating for a minute, dumping, filling, repeat a few times, then let sit in tray for 15 minutes, dump, fill, another 15. Of corse this is preceded with a bath in HCA.

Cheers!

dlorygayz · Sep 13, 2018

Matt- The distilled water stop is mainly because I don't know my tap water quality, and using tubes it's a small amount of water so it can just be single use without much cost, and I've read so much conflicting info about tf-5, seems like it doesn't really matter what you use as a stop, so single use distilled water seems to be the purest option.

Photo Engineer · Sep 13, 2018

TF-5 can be mixed in small batches with no problem. It has minimal health risks and pollution risks. It can be used with either a rinse after development or a stop, but if you use a rinse, do NOT turn on the lights until the print is through the fix and change the rinse very frequently.

PE

dlorygayz · Sep 13, 2018

Andrew- the dmax was one of my concerns, I believe i read somewhere that extending the fixing time can help with that, not exactly sure how, but it will be something I try.

Xtol is my film developer so I'm starting with that, if it's a bust ill move on to my next option, I also like to keep my chemical storage low. I hate showing up to hazmat clean up day with a dozen different chemicals and have to explain what each one is.

dlorygayz · Sep 13, 2018

PE thanks, exactly what I wanted to know.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 13, 2018

dlorygayz said:
Andrew- the dmax was one of my concerns, I believe i read somewhere that extending the fixing time can help with that, not exactly sure how, but it will be something I try.

Xtol is my film developer so I'm starting with that, if it's a bust ill move on to my next option, I also like to keep my chemical storage low. I hate showing up to hazmat clean up day with a dozen different chemicals and have to explain what each one is.

I know exactly how you feel. I've got to go through my chemistry as I've acquired way too much over the years.
I'm not really sure if extending fixing time will improve DMAX... I've never heard of that. Please try it and let us know!
Xtol is a lovely film developer. I've used it on and off for years. I hope you can make it work for you!

MattKing · Sep 13, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
TF-5 can be mixed in small batches with no problem. It has minimal health risks and pollution risks. It can be used with either a rinse after development or a stop, but if you use a rinse, do NOT turn on the lights until the print is through the fix and change the rinse very frequently.

PE

dlorygayz said:
PE thanks, exactly what I wanted to know.

In case you weren't aware, PE is one of the two designers of TF-5.

And on the extending fixing times issue, I can't envisage any way it would extend DMAX, although it might increase contrast by bleaching away some of the highlight detail.

Photo Engineer · Sep 14, 2018

Overfixing is always problematic. Don't extend fix times if you can avoid it.

PE

dlorygayz · Sep 14, 2018

here is my first straight print on mgd44m(this paper expired in the 90s sometime)
exposure is 5 seconds at f/11
processing is at 72*F, 4 min in 3oz. of Xtol undiluted, 45 sec distilled water rinse(3oz), 45 sec TF-5 fix(3oz)
this was the 3rd print using the same batch of chemicals

dlorygayz · Sep 14, 2018

This is my second print
exposure is 10 seconds at f/16 with roughly 3 seconds of dodging on the flowers
processing is the same except fresh Xtol for this one
There' some blotchy-ness that's from the scanner, I dont see it in the prints. I scanned these in color so the browning on the edge of the print could be seen. I guess the fixer is getting exhausted(old paper, peeling edges, didnt get it on the first 3) after 4 prints? I was predicting 6 with my math from what the TF-5 bottle said, but i also went 15 seconds longer than suggested which i wont do anymore.

MattKing · Sep 14, 2018

I'd suggest some changes in your testing.
I wouldn't attribute the browning edges to over-fixing without further information. 15 seconds would not normally matter.
You need some current paper.
You are working with quite old Ilford RC paper that, in my experience, often gives inconsistent, fogged and low contrast results. Depending on storage conditions, delamination is a reasonably common result with old RC paper.
You also need to arrive at an appropriate concentration and standard development time for the developer.
You are using developer that is six times more concentrated than Andrew O'Neill was using (if I read his post correctly). And you are developing it for four minutes, which is a long development time for RC paper.
You also need to work with a negative that is better suited to use as an evaluation tool. It would be much more useful to do tests with a scene that has a wide range of tones and provides a normal amount of contrast through each of the shadow, mid-tone and highlight parts of the image.
If you were working with trays and under a safelight, I would suggest a developer test that measures how long in the developer it takes for the image to initially emerge, as well as how long it takes in the developer for the image to appear to be almost completely developed. With tubes, I'm not sure how you can do those checks, unless you are willing to do a lot of boring testing.

Ian Grant · Sep 15, 2018

A water stop bath is not a good idea with prints, Photo Engineer who was involved in formulating it advises a stop bath. That could well be the cause of the staining.

Ian

dlorygayz · Sep 15, 2018

Matt- thanks i think I will try a tray to see how long it takes, how closely will that time convert to a tube?
I was going to try 1+1 next but maybe I'll try 1+5 first. Maybe I dont understand this correctly but I thought film developers are usually lower strength compared to paper, so my thinking was to use it at higher concentration. I have alot of this paper left, its fine for now to get me headed in the right direction, when I buy more Ill check my process again.

Ian- the only thing I have on hand to try right now would be a vinegar stop.

Ian Grant · Sep 15, 2018

dlorygayz said:
Ian- the only thing I have on hand to try right now would be a vinegar stop.

White or rather colourless distilled vinegar would be better than water,

Ian

Photo Engineer · Sep 15, 2018

White vinegar at about 2% is just fine. Read the label and dilute your vinegar accordingly.

A water rinse after development is never recommended with paper prints and can cause staining. The problem worsens as size goes up.

PE

MattKing · Sep 15, 2018

dlorygayz said:
Matt- thanks i think I will try a tray to see how long it takes, how closely will that time convert to a tube?

I use Kodak Polymax T, for which the manufacturer recommends a developing time range of 0:45 to 3:00 minutes for RC papers at 68F.
I usually aim for 90 seconds development in trays, and find that the same time works fine in tubes (which I use fairly frequently - particularly for contact proof sheets).
I've used longer developing times in trays, but usually in special circumstances, such as when I am developing multiple prints at the same time.
As a rule of thumb, try a version of factorial development - whatever time it takes to see the emergence of obvious shadows, take that time and multiply it by six to get an appropriate full development time.
So if it takes 15 seconds before the shadows are clearly emerging, use 90 seconds as a developing time.

Printing with xtol and tf-5 in rotary drums

dlorygayz

Bob Carnie

Rudeofus

bernard_L

dlorygayz

Ian Grant

MattKing

Moderator

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

dlorygayz

Photo Engineer

dlorygayz

dlorygayz

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

Photo Engineer

dlorygayz

Attachments

dlorygayz

Attachments

MattKing

Moderator

Ian Grant

dlorygayz

Ian Grant

Photo Engineer

MattKing

Moderator

Printing with xtol and tf-5 in rotary drums

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Attachments

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency