Printing white backgrounds on white paper...

[Sim2]

Hallo,

Not sure if this is in the "right" forum - please move if applicable but...

I print with a 1/4inch paper border around my images, whichis fine when I have a black or grey backround/surround to the subject but recently I have been deliberately shooting with an "iced" white paper background surround.

I am printing with what I hope is the slghtest amount of tone in the white at the edges of the picture to assist with "marking" the edge of the picture and the start of the surrounding paper. Occasionally I think that the paper white might be better. But then there is no delineation between photo and paper.

In the graphics world the answer is to add a "keyline" stroke around the image to anchor the subject abd stop it floating on the page.

Now, although one can print how one wants I am wondering if there is an accepted tradition (for want of a better word) for dealing with this photographically as opposed to graphic art wise;

Should the white edge of the image always be a tad off-white to delineate the image from the surrounding paper?
Is it accepted or a "cop-out" to add a black key-line stroke around the image to indicate the image border? (If so, how is the best way to do this in the darkroom?)
Is it ok to have no discernible egde between the photo and the surrounding paper?

I don't think I have explained this very well, but thoughts/questions/musings that arise are very welcome.

Sim2.

 

[Ian Grant]

That choice is up to you.

Personally I like to see tone in the whites of my prints unless they are specular high-lights (bright lights, the sun, or reflections of light. That's the way most fine art printer work.

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Quite a few photographers use 'pen lines' to keep the image together and hold in white backgrounds. I even know about a pen-lining easel to print the pen line into the paper.

However, I recommend to use them very sparingly, and not as a matter of course, because to me, they always leave the suspicion that it is used to cover up a lack of finesse in composition or printing. OK, for high-key images though.

 

[Sim2]

I have been avoiding adding key-lines or pen-lines to the images as I do feel that it looks a "bit of a cheat" and the image edge should have a bit of tone. It is interesting to hear that this is the "accepted" way with fine-art printing - got to aspire to something!

There are always accepted conventions in different mediums which I find interesting - with the graphic arts it seems to be not "cheating" to lob a key-line stroke around a white background but this does look a bit of a cop out to me, at the moment.

Going to keep refining my dev/printing to get *just* enough tone on the egdes. Shooting with a black background is soo much easier!

Cheers for the inputs, appreciated.

 

[Vaughn]

I agree with Ralph, about the "pen line" but with the added warning that if you do it with just a few images, make sure they don't look odd or out-of-place when displayed or otherwise shown with work that does not have the "pen line".

And I also like to have bright areas (usually sky) on the edge of the image to have a slight tone to them -- and in most cases I like very light skies. Another way I have separated the whites on the image's edge from the paper is in mounted on (just with silver gelatin prints have I done this) is to dry mount the print, trimmed to the image area, with the window cut larger than the image area. Thus the edge of the paper itself creates the border between the paper and the mount board it is on.

Vaughn

 

[Ian Grant]

Flashing may help.

Ian

 

[kristopher_lawrence]

Frame the best you can, and show a little bit of the film rebate. This way you keep your pen line, and it doen't look like lousy framing quite the contrary. Plus, is there anything more beautifull than a Hasselblad made rebate?

 

[Sim2]

This whole thought process was brought about by deliberately shooting a dark lily against a contrasting white background and "playing" with the print.

When printing it pure white, it looked daft as the lily stalk "floated" out of nothing. The key-line would anchor the stalk and the flower, but feels a cheat. When printed with a slight gradient burn to the edges that gave a bit of tone to the white background it does look much better and more "naturally" grounded. It is a challenge to get just the tiniest amount of tone into the white - made me re-evaluate my dry down times! I just know that at work the answer would be to lob the key-line stroke around it - lol!

The challenge continues, just glad there are no more snowdrops around now.....

 

[Sim2]

Frame the best you can, and show a little bit of the film rebate. This way you keep your pen line, and it doen't look like lousy framing quite the contrary. Plus, is there anything more beautifull than a Hasselblad made rebate?

The enlarger mask is *tight* to the edge of the neg and not too sure about whether I want to file off the edges just yet - I know I would leave a sharp edge just waitnig for my negs! But I do agree about the Hass rebate, bit like seeing a 5x4 rebate. But only for those "in the know."

 

[Ian Grant]

Echo, Echo, Mr 1974

Flashing may help.

Ian

 

[clayne]

Just burn it in man. It shouldn't take more than 5 seconds to effectively dodge out the subject and burn in the remaining area or alternatively just edge burn it. You only need a hint of tone here, not a stop of density.

 

[brian steinberger]

I pretty much agree with everyone else, even if you'd like your sky or background pure paper base white in from the edges, I believe that there should be definition at the edges, showing just slight tone from pure paper base white. I do this by running a test strip to find the amount of time that gives the first signs of tone. Make sure you dry your test strip before you evaluate!

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Flashing works, fogging may work, burn-in if you really want to, but I don't believe that you absolutely need some tonality at the edges with every image. There are exceptions when pen lines are the right strategy. I'm usually not a fan of them, but here are some examples where I picked them over flashing.

Dead Link Removed

Dead Link Removed

 

[Sim2]

Pity those pages don't open on my ancient Mac.

 

[Ian Grant]

Pity those pages don't open on my ancient Mac.

have you got child net protection software or has the wife installed it to tame your net wanderings, they ARE dodgy links maybe the words Kinky, Nude & Erotica stop your MAC opening

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... they ARE dodgy links ...

Ian

come on, now

 

[Sim2]

No, not web protection - it's Java. The iWeb application uses a newer version of Java than can run on my OS. Pity that it is Mac built sites (mainly) that won't run on an old Mac OS!

 

[Ian David]

I agree with the suggestions to get a tiny bit of density in your background. Pen lines almost always look cheap and tacky. (Test: If your elderly aunt would think it looks nice, it is probably a bad idea!)

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian

come on, now

Teasing Ralph, of course they aren't But some Net nanny software would actually stop access.

If you saw how many websites are censored and access denied in Turkey you'd be appalled.

Ian

 

[John Koehrer]

Hey check out the pen lines on the quote above see how the quote stands out?
For consistency either print with or without but don't mix them. IMO I like the uneven edges of a filed out carrier but YOU can get a similar effect using an edge mask.
cut a mask slightly smaller than your print size (.5-1mm) put the mask in one corner of the print & expose it for max black or gray or off white, then in the diagonally opposite corner & do the same.This give you a border in the image, not a pen line.

 

[stillsilver]

I would also choose burning over pen-lines.

Mike

 

[CBG]

Try a little edge burning. It can firm up the edges without the blatant look of pen lines.

 

[ooze]

IMO, learning to make a print that will stand off the sheet of paper is one of the major steps towards mastering the craft. Edge burning (the use of different grades is possible as well) and flashing (either the whole or part of the image, or even just a thin strip at the edge) are useful tools for that.

When I first started printing about 12 years ago I used to draw a keyline around every print. Slowly it dawned on me that that was actually an impediment to learning.

 

[Nige]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how are you displaying these prints? Matting with an off white board might give you the differentiation that you seek.

I generally print with a 1cm border (in the interests of keeping the paper flat) but cut the matt so that the border is hidden.

 

[ooze]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how are you displaying these prints? Matting with an off white board might give you the differentiation that you seek.

I generally print with a 1cm border (in the interests of keeping the paper flat) but cut the matt so that the border is hidden.

I don't mat a print unless it's going on the wall. If the picture is going to be presented as part of a portfolio I put it into a museum quality clear plastic sleeve. Then the whole set of sleeved pictures is simply put into a photo paper box. The Ilford MG WT boxes are great for that. It doesn't look pretentious but also not shoddy. Since there is no mat, it's important that the picture is well set off against the paper white. I leave a generous border of about 3-4cm.