Printing Out Frames... I might make some..

jp80874 · Dec 10, 2009

David,

The felt on my two from Bostick & Sullivan frames is 4mm thick. B&S sells these, but I understand they are built by a neighboring business. Bill Schwab's 7x17 felt is 3mm. The two from B&S have been used very little. The 7x17 has probably been used 600-700 times. This may have flattened the felt a bit. Both builders used black felt.

Your machined knobs are beautiful. Can you explain the frame design you have in mind? On my three the ends of the spring go into cuts or grooves on the interior sides of the frame. To do that with yours, the knob edges would prevent the ends of the spring going into the cuts. How does your design function?

John

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 10, 2009

The normal arrangement that John is describing has the leaf springs attached to the back in the center of the spring usually with a rivet that has large flat heads, and it is free to swivel. There are grooves in the inside edges of the frame, and you push the ends of the leaf spring into the grooves as you rotate the spring to hold the back in place. This mechanism is fairly quick to operate, so it is easy to open half the back and check progress when printing out and close it again as needed without disturbing the registration of the print and the negative.

There is one downside that your design alleviates, which is that with extremely long exposures, the rivet can get warm and leave an artifact on the print, but generally one learns to avoid such long exposures. On the other hand, with a spring that is held in place at the ends as yours appears to be, I would be concerned about the spring bowing up in the center and not applying enough pressure.

vickersdc · Dec 11, 2009

The idea was to have a leaf spring that is held down at either end, achieved by tightening down on a knurled brass knob at either end. The reason I wanted to do this was to allow those people who may have difficulty in getting the normal leaf springs in position. My way is slower for sure, but I'm hoping easier for those who might have some issues with manual dexterity.

As for the leaf spring bowing up in the middle... it will still be screwed into the back so will not rise up in the middle. All will become clear when I get to building that bit! The brass knobs are only resting on the spring in that image, they will not be fixed to it; instead, the leaf spring will have a slot cut into it at either end to allow the threaded portion of the knob to fit through.

Here's a quick drawing of the cross-section that I hope will make it clearer...

Cheers,
David.

Steve Smith · Dec 11, 2009

vickersdc said:
Here you can see one of the stainless steel leaf springs, and the four brass knobs that I turned on the lathe today. The threaded inserts for the wood have arrived, and I'm hoping that I might get an hour or so in the workshop over the weekend to start on the Oak frame.

They look good. Where did you get your spring material from?

I must get my lathe running again but I have been spoiled recently with the use of the CNC machine at work which also handles oak very well! (see panoramic camera link in my signature line).

Steve.

2F/2F · Dec 11, 2009

I would be interested in a 5x7 version. (See my recent wanted ad in the classified section.)

vickersdc · Dec 11, 2009

2F/2F said:
I would be interested in a 5x7 version. (See my recent wanted ad in the classified section.)

It's looking like my 'pre-production' one is going to be 5x7 as I have an insert on my FKD that reduces the 18x24cm back to 13x18cm. If you need one right now, then (to be honest) it'll be quicker to purchase an existing one if offered.

However, if you don't mind waiting whilst I build up this first one, then I could definitely help you out!

I will be posting images of the build on this first one, just to show how it all goes together - stay tuned and add comments!

Thank you,
David.

jp80874 · Dec 11, 2009

David A. Goldfarb said:
The normal arrangement that John is describing has the leaf springs attached to the back in the center of the spring usually with a rivet that has large flat heads, and it is free to swivel.

My three frames differ from this only in that the rivet is replaced by a swiveling tensioning device such as the above mentioned machine screw and bolt and lock nut. These allow adjustment in spring tension as the parts wear from use.

John

jp80874 · Dec 11, 2009

vickersdc said:
Here's a quick drawing of the cross-section that I hope will make it clearer...

Cheers,
David.

David,

If that is a quick drawing, I look forward to the detailed ones. Beautiful!

I use a cold light Durst 138S enlarger as my light source. For those who will light from above that means this design with be working upside down from how it is shown. Will the four knobs then become the feet? I ask because if so, after the 600-700 uses I have done, I would think the knobs would begin to tear up the enlarger table. Can you soften the top of the knobs with glued felt or would you expect the user to put a replacable pad of some sort on the table?

I hope you see these questions as helping with the design rather than nay saying criticism.

John

vickersdc · Dec 11, 2009

Hi John,

Thanks for the comments - my drawing is indeed upside-down

The brass knobs will indeed become the feet, and although I don't want to glue some felt on to them, there's no reason why they couldn't be supplied with some little protective felt pads. The thought of putting on pieces of felt after I've polished the ends to a lovely satin finish is more than I can bear

Taking on board what Denise said, if you notice the way that the wood is shaped, you have the clear glass (then your negative and POP), but - and here's the clever bit - if the glass is made to be the same size as the negatives then you can replace the glass with a glass plate for printing! Two for the price of one

David.

jp80874 · Dec 11, 2009

vickersdc said:
The thought of putting on pieces of felt after I've polished the ends to a lovely satin finish is more than I can bear .

David,

Do you know Sarah? My first wife asked on occasion, some 30 years ago, if it had been my lot in life to torture her. I would respond, but of course my dear. Do you require another serving?

John

Pete H · Dec 12, 2009

David,

I would be very interested in an 11x14 version with inserts. Great idea!

cheers
Pete

dwross · Dec 13, 2009

David,

I'm already really looking forward to printing with one of your frames. I'm one of those who feel that the paper can be (dare I hint 'should' be?) as much a part of a great print as the image. Allowing a glass plate to be printed with more than a thin strip of surrounding paper will be a big boon to plate printers, especially we who print on handcrafted paper. On a purely practical level, it will make fitting the paper a lot less of a nit-picky task. Good luck with all the details and decisions on your way to market.
d

vickersdc · Dec 13, 2009

I've been able to spend a couple of hours over the weekend to start work on the making the first [prototype] frame. This first frame is for 13x18cm plate glass, but can be fitted with 2mm float glass and film/paper negatives used instead. The paper used for POP can be up to 20.8 x 15.5cm - no particular reason, that's just how it ended up based on the wood I had available!

Here's a couple of images of the build so far...

2F/2F · Dec 13, 2009

Glad to see you are hard at work on my custom 5x7 frame!

Looking good so far.

Jerevan · Dec 14, 2009

Okay, I want one of these! It's looking great, David. And yes, I am doing 13x18 so that will be perfect, thank you!

dwross · Dec 15, 2009

The conversation here made me realize I should probably put together a short piece about contact printing glass plates. I'm genuinely excited about David's proposed frames. I'm always uncomfortable encouraging people to try something that will require a lot of luck on ebay to get into, but little by little, we all seem to be coming together to reinvent handcrafted photography for the 21st century. Very cool.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/Overview/OverviewPart6.htm#CONTACT_GLASS_PLATE

vickersdc · Dec 15, 2009

Denise,

Interesting point that you make - and it's something that I'm beginning to notice too; people are coming together to bring back the traditional methods, perhaps in a stance against the modern world? Either way, I believe there's a resurgence and it was one of the reasons why I had started Creative Image Maker.

A short piece about contact printing glass plates would be great to read!

As for this printing frame, I'm thinking about putting a leather handle on the side, held in with matching brass knobs - that way you can carry it around, or hang it up when not in use. The brass is done already and the leather is sitting on my dining room table waiting for me to cut it! Pictures to follow...

Cheers,
David.

dwross · Dec 15, 2009

Hi David,

The link above (http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/Overview/OverviewPart6.htm#CONTACT_GLASS_PLATE) is about as short a piece as I'm capable of writing but hopefully long enough to do the job. It's hard to know how much to write in a word-saturated world.
d

p.s. A handle is a very clever idea. Make it compact. Some UV printing boxes are already space-challenged for their intended printing frame size.

michaelbsc · Dec 17, 2009

dwross said:
... little by little, we all seem to be coming together to reinvent handcrafted photography for the 21st century.

This is exactly what I came to realize in the past couple of years, too. When I first started getting back into photography after a long absense (you know, raising kids, ya-da, ya-da, ya-da) I would occassionally pop into Wal-mart and pick up a couple of rolls of film. Most of them had Plus-X and Tri-X 135 hanging on the peg. Then it stopped being there.

I never found roll film at Wal-mart, but used to pop in Ritz Camera to pick up a few rolls. Then Ritz Camera, the only *CAMERA* store around, wasn't even carrying roll film on the shelf one day.

I was shocked!

Since then I've started looking at everything from silver recover to hand coating paper, with coating plates further into the future for me.

This suits my wife fine, since she's interested in the craft aspect.

I haven't gotten too far into it, because I can still find commercial products for my hobby, but I realize the day is coming when I'll have to make it myself.

I fully expect that if we're still doing this in 25 more years we'll be making at least 50% of our own materials.

MB

vickersdc · Dec 19, 2009

I've not able to progress the printing frame much this week, but I have just been out to the workshop to make the handle for it. The leather handle is held in place with two knurled brass knobs, in a similar style to the main ones on the back (only slightly smaller).

Note: this isn't finished, I'm hoping to clean them up properly on Monday.

Cheers,
David.

vickersdc · Dec 28, 2009

Latest Update...

I've been able to spend an hour or so out in the workshop and have now made the back plates, and attached the stainless steel leaf springs. I've also cut the glass for the front, and it can be removed and a 5x7 glass negative put it it's place instead. Here's the latest picture...

Still to do... fit the hinges between the back plates, glue on the felt and then polish / finish everything off.

Cheers,
David.

vickersdc · Dec 29, 2009

Here it is...

I've recessed the hinges and screwed them on, and glued on the black felt; here's a couple of snaps of the finished product (with the exception of polishing the brass knobs that hold the handle on)...

It's been great fun making this up, from turning the brass rod to make the various knobs, to cutting the glass and jointing / shaping the wood. Now I need to start on the next one...

2F/2F · Dec 29, 2009

Good job.

Does it work?

How much would you charge for the prototype or a reproduction?

Steve Smith · Dec 30, 2009

Looks perfect. Have you tried it yet?

Steve.

Jerevan · Dec 30, 2009

Looks great! When does the big production line start?

Printing Out Frames... I might make some..

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