Printing 16mm motion picture in the color darkroom using a 28mm schneider lens

[caml]

I have taken on the task of printing single frames of 16mm motion picture film in my color darkroom. I have purchased a 28mm lens as anything longer was creating too small of an enlargement even putting my enlarger at maximum height. I am printing with an omega D5 XL enlarger so its quite big. My problem is i cannot seem to find a large enough extension tube for the lens to bring the negative in focus. I have completely maxed out the bellows and they are pushed all the way up or "sandwiched them completely". I have a .5 inch recessed lens plate but has done hardly anything to alleviate the problem.
Perhaps moving up to a 35mm lens could help ? I have had very little success in finding a long enough extension tube that I think will work if i'm using a 28mm lens as i know that i need to shorten the distance of the lens to the paper. Does anyone have any advice or resources they could offer ?

 

[koraks]

You could 3d print a longer tube. You'll have to figure out/hope it won't vignette and it'll probably be extremely inconvenient to operate the aperture. But it may just work.

Otherwise you could try wall or floor projection.

Sounds like a fun project btw.

 

[Hilo]

It is difficult to understand because I do not know your enlarger. But I, kind off, understand your problem. Is your 28mm an enlarging lens? If yes, does it have a 39mm screwthread?

I can check what are the longer 39mm extension rings that I have. The normal Leitz extension ring to use with a 50mm Focotar is 1cm, I believe. But I have longer ones too, made by some Russian manufactorer.

The 1cm Leitz extension rings are not difficult to find and probably you could use two of them, to make one. To find them cheap is the challenge, and therefor the other brand may be wiser to search for.

 

[awty]

I have fixed a lens on top of a recessed lens board so the lens is inside the bellows.
Here's a 5mm lens I fitted to a lens board to a big enlargement.

 

[xkaes]

Your Schneider 28mm lens needs a RECESSED board -- see photo (flat vs recessed). The lens either has a 39m thread or a 25mm thread (more likely).

The lens must be 28mm (one inch) away from the film. You'll need a 10-12mm recessed board. Your enlarger's bellows cannot compress enough to get the lens that close. I'm sure one was made for your enlarger, but it might require some looking around -- and maybe an adapter.

You can find what you need on the SUBCLUB:

http://www.subclub.org/darkroom/lenses.htm

 

[ic-racer]

This is my Minox setup for the Omega D5500. It is a 25mm lens which will focus on the Omega D5500. I suspect there is a lensboard for your enlarger that is similar. I'm not sure about the D5, but these lensboards for the D5500 are reversible. So this one can be mounted the other way around for a long lens if needed.

 

[Kino]

All excellent advice above.

You could also look around for a trashed 16mm projector, chop the movement out and use your lamp house to projection print, but that's a whole lot more work than doing any of the above.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

The easiest thing to do is to get a male to male reversing ring then mount the lens inside the bellows.

Minolta made a 30mm lens that extends into the bellows. I use one on my Saunders 4x5 enlarger to enlarge Minox. The Minolta is probably the best lens you will find for 16mm.

The other alternative is to get an enlahead that is more or less like a mini enlarger that goes on your lens board in place of the lens and has a lens and a neg holder. I have a Mamiya enlahead and the lens is nice and sharp.

 

[xkaes]

Minolta made three different 30mm enlarging lenses. You're referring to the 30mm f2.8 C.E. version which is indeed recessed -- so no recessed board is needed.

Minolta also made an ENLA UNIT with a 30mm lens. The main difference from the Mamiya (which had FIVE versions of its ENLAHEAD) is that Minolta's will cover the larger 12x17mm Minolta 16mm format (and the 110 & Kiev 13x17mm formats). The Mamiya was made for 10x14mm only.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Minolta made three different 30mm enlarging lenses. You're referring to the 30mm f2.8 C.E. version which is indeed recessed -- so no recessed board is needed.

Yup, I think mine is a C.E. Rokkor-X but I know that Minolta labeled lenses differently even though there were no changes. I think they dropped the Rokkor or the X. Can't remember. The 30 was optimized for bigger enlargements than normal lenses I believe, something like 25 or 30x. It works great for my Minox negs, although I wish I could get something wider.

 

[caml]

It is difficult to understand because I do not know your enlarger. But I, kind off, understand your problem. Is your 28mm an enlarging lens? If yes, does it have a 39mm screwthread?

I can check what are the longer 39mm extension rings that I have. The normal Leitz extension ring to use with a 50mm Focotar is 1cm, I believe. But I have longer ones too, made by some Russian manufactorer.

The 1cm Leitz extension rings are not difficult to find and probably you could use two of them, to make one. To find them cheap is the challenge, and therefor the other brand may be wiser to search for.

You are all correct. it is a schneider componon s 28mm enlarger lens with a 39mm screwthread. I'm not sure if a 1cm extenison is going to be enough based on my current problem. But a viable solution that I will certainly look into ! So thank you !

 

[caml]

This is my Minox setup for the Omega D5500. It is a 25mm lens which will focus on the Omega D5500. I suspect there is a lensboard for your enlarger that is similar. I'm not sure about the D5, but these lensboards for the D5500 are reversible. So this one can be mounted the other way around for a long lens if needed. View attachment 359157

This is very cleaver will give this a go today and report back

 

[caml]

The easiest thing to do is to get a male to male reversing ring then mount the lens inside the bellows.

Minolta made a 30mm lens that extends into the bellows. I use one on my Saunders 4x5 enlarger to enlarge Minox. The Minolta is probably the best lens you will find for 16mm.

The other alternative is to get an enlahead that is more or less like a mini enlarger that goes on your lens board in place of the lens and has a lens and a neg holder. I have a Mamiya enlahead and the lens is nice and sharp.

This is extremely helpful thank you! However I have never heard an enlahead but will check it out as im sure it will solve the problem at hand!

 

[xkaes]

Yup, I think mine is a C.E. Rokkor-X but I know that Minolta labeled lenses differently even though there were no changes. I think they dropped the Rokkor or the X. Can't remember. The 30 was optimized for bigger enlargements than normal lenses I believe, something like 25 or 30x. It works great for my Minox negs, although I wish I could get something wider.

All of the Minolta C.E. lenses are marked "C.E.". Some, but not all are also marked "ROKKOR" or "ROKKOR-X" -- but they are all the same, as you stated. Minox negs are tough -- unless you like small prints. There are a few 25mm lenses, and a hard-to-find 20mm. I was lucky to get a 21mm E-Yashinon-DX at a decent price:

http://www.subclub.org/darkroom/lenses.htm

 

[xkaes]

You are all correct. it is a schneider componon s 28mm enlarger lens with a 39mm screwthread. I'm not sure if a 1cm extenison is going to be enough based on my current problem. But a viable solution that I will certainly look into ! So thank you !

You don't need an extension. You need the exact opposite -- a recessed lens board. Look at the picture (above) that I posted of a Schneider 28mm on a recessed board next to a flat board. You need to get the lens closer to the film -- not farther away from it. That's what a recessed board does.

 

[caml]

This is very cleaver will give this a go today and report back

unfortunately with my 3 lens turret system i cannot inverse the direction of the lens / mount further into the enlarger / bellow

 

[xkaes]

Is the turret not removable?

 

[ic-racer]

unfortunately with my 3 lens turret system i cannot inverse the direction of the lens / mount further into the enlarger / bellow

Yes, and on the Omega D5500 short lenses also are not able to be focused with the turret. You will need to remove the turret and fit the holder for the individual plates. Reads like you don't have the D5 manual? It is available on the internet.

You need what is called the Slide In Single Lensmount.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

All of the Minolta C.E. lenses are marked "C.E.". Some, but not all are also marked "ROKKOR" or "ROKKOR-X" -- but they are all the same, as you stated. Minox negs are tough -- unless you like small prints. There are a few 25mm lenses, and a hard-to-find 20mm. I was lucky to get a 21mm E-Yashinon-DX at a decent price:

http://www.subclub.org/darkroom/lenses.htm

That is lucky. I tried to find a shorter lens but ended up just buying a Minox enlarger. That did the trick. The bulbs though….

I’ve thought about getting a Voigtlander 12mm or 15mm lens. Should be good enough only using the center.

 

[xkaes]

A less drastic approach would be to attach a #10 diopter close-up lens under the 30mm lens that you have. That would turn it into a 23mm lens. Since you stop down the lens anyway to exposure the paper, the results would still be pretty good -- especially if you get a good #10 lens. If you started with a 30mm lens, a #20 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/294628155515) would produce a 19mm lens.

If you started with a 25mm lens, a #10 would produce a 20mm lens. If you started with a 25mm lens, a #20 would produce a 17mm lens.

http://fuzzcraft.com/achromats.html

 

[caml]

A less drastic approach would be to attach a #10 diopter close-up lens under the 30mm lens that you have. That would turn it into a 23mm lens. Since you stop down the lens anyway to exposure the paper, the results would still be pretty good -- especially if you get a good #10 lens. If you started with a 30mm lens, a #20 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/294628155515) would produce a 19mm lens.

If you started with a 25mm lens, a #10 would produce a 20mm lens. If you started with a 25mm lens, a #20 would produce a 17mm lens.

http://fuzzcraft.com/achromats.html

never heard or used one but seems like a great idea ! thanks so much

 

[caml]

Yes, and on the Omega D5500 short lenses also are not able to be focused with the turret. You will need to remove the turret and fit the holder for the individual plates. Reads like you don't have the D5 manual? It is available on the internet.

You need what is called the Slide In Single Lensmount. View attachment 359206

great ill be getting one of these then !

 

[xkaes]

never heard or used one but seems like a great idea ! thanks so much

caml, that wasn't directed at you. That was meant for PR James. Making YOUR lens shorter won't help you out, but it might help him.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. OP, you don't seem to know the relationships between enlargement (print size/negative size), the lens focal length and the distance from the enlarging lens' rear node to the negative and between enlargement, focal length and distance from the lens' front node to the paper.

An enlarging lens' rear node is located very close to the lens' diaphragm. The diaphragm-to-negative distance you want for enlargement E and lens' focal length F is F*(1/E)+1. So, if you want to enlarge the image on film 10x and the lens focal length is 28 mm, the diaphragm has to be 28*1.1 mm. If your enlarger can't put the lens that near the film, you need a longer lens.

On the other side of the lens, the diaphragm (very near the front node) to paper distance is given by F*((1/M)+1) *M. For 10x and a 28 mm lens, the distance is 28*1.1*10 = 308 mm.

Put these magic formulas in a spreadsheet and play around with combinations of magnification and focal length to find out what's possible with your enlarger and your enlarging lenses.

And stop talking about needing more extension between lens and film. You need less, as most of the people who've responded have told you.

 

[Ian C]

The problem is the design of the D5. It uses a long, tapered bellows. When they’re stacked solid, the stack is incompressible. Attempting to force them closer will temporarily spring the lens-mount receiver to angle the lens slightly towards the column. That will spoil the focus due to tilting the lens axis relative to the negative. Overdoing it might damage the bellows. The lens-mount receiver is too small to allow a deeply recessed mount as is required for a short focal length lens on the D5. The D5 is best used with lenses of, say, 75 mm to 150 mm.

The deepest Omega D5 extended formed lens mount (used in reverse) is only about 14 mm in depth. That leaves the lens too far from the negative to focus. It’s useful to know how close the lens needs to be from the negative to obtain focus. That will help you decide if it’s practical to use the lens you have in mind.

The starting point is: What size projection do you want and what is the format of the film? The 16 mm motion picture frame is usually 10.26 mm × 7.49 mm but can be larger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_mm_film

If you want to make a 5” x 7” borderless print, the largest 5 x 7 rectangle in the negative is 10.26 mm x 7.33 mm, which is an efficient match with little wasted from the negative.

To enlarge this to a borderless 5” x 7” print you’d need some edge overlap of the projection, say, 5 mm per side. So, we’d have to size the projection for 137 mm x 188 mm, magnification = 18.3X. Using a 28 mm lens, the distance from the negative to the first nodal point of the lens is 29.53 mm.

About the physically smallest 28 mm lens that might fit into the small space available on a D5/D6 enlarger is the old version of the 4/28 Componon. I don’t know if the current version would be small enough to fit. The older lens has a flange distance of 24.5 mm.

At 18.3X the flange would be 26.03 mm from the negative. That would require a substantially deep custom-fabricated lens mount that would have to fit inside the bellows. The aperture would have to be preset to its optimum value before mounting, as you probably couldn’t adjust it after mounting the lens into the deep mount. The slide-in plate would have to be installed into the receiver first. The slide-in plate would have to be altered to accept the custom mount. Then the mount & lens would be installed onto the slide-in plate and secured with screws.

Although it might be possible to make such a mount, it’s not practical. It would make more sense to look for a second enlarger for this project that can place the lens at the appropriate distance from the negative without modification.

The lens and mount shown in post #5 is the right idea. That is an Omega B22/B66 mount. These enlargers have short bellows that make this practical. But that’s not going to work on the D5/D6 due to their much longer bellows.