Print Washer

Rmaydana · Apr 26, 2020

Hi, guys. I'm trying to get past lock-ups and I've decided to make my own paper wash. My problem is that to bring me one from the United States the cost is high, the product must travel to Paraguay. The washing machine I'm thinking about Vertical (space frames in the lab), for copies40x50cm. My doubts are in the entrance of liquid if it is by the side or by the floor of the washing machine the drainage, I am thinking about a species of siphon to empty and with an overflow envelope for the liquid. What you can collaborate on images and videos will be valued. A thousand thanks and a greeting from the south of the hemisphere. Here we are also in isolation.

Manténgase a salvo, guarden prudente distancia.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

David Allen · Apr 27, 2020

I would thoroughly recommend you read the seminal article about washing prints written by Martin Reed.

In Mysteries Of The Vortex (Part One) Martin discusses the background and considerations about archivally washing prints. He explains how you can thoroughly wash prints without a washer and gives formulae for various tests for efficient washing.

In Mysteries Of The Vortex (Part Two) he explains exactly what an efficient print washer requires.

They key consideration about washing prints is that you do not need a print washer to achieve archival quality but you have to invest much more of your time. An efficient print washer saves your time but needs much more water (which, if you have to pay for it, is more expensive). Whichever route you choose, it is important to use a Hypo Clearing Agent. If you can't buy this wherew you live, here is a simple formula:

Water (125º F / 52˚C) – 750 ml
Sodium Sulfite – 200 g
Sodium bisulfite – 2 g (if you do not have this the solution will also work with just the Sodium Sulfite)
Water to make – 1 liter

Dilute 1:9 for use.

I attach Martin's article as two PDFs so that you can use DeepL to translate one section at a time.

Bests,

David (please note my temporary website address: http://dsallen.carpentier-galerie.de)

john_s · Apr 27, 2020

I'm also in the Southern Hemisphere and some years ago I bought a Summitek washer from the USA (no longer made) at HUGE expense. There are other makers of a similar style. I attach a copy of the original instructions and also a copy of the diagram that didn't copy well in the pdf file. The idea is that a slow flow of water goes down one slot, up the next, down the next etc. They were expensive partly because there is a lot of material in them and quite a lot of work.
Mine had, at additional expense, textured slots to make the paper easier to slide out.

mshchem · Apr 27, 2020

john_s said:
I'm also in the Southern Hemisphere and some years ago I bought a Summitek washer from the USA (no longer made) at HUGE expense. There are other makers of a similar style. I attach a copy of the original instructions and also a copy of the diagram that didn't copy well in the pdf file. The idea is that a slow flow of water goes down one slot, up the next, down the next etc. They were expensive partly because there is a lot of material in them and quite a lot of work.
Mine had, at additional expense, textured slots to make the paper easier to slide out.

This is the only way to build a print washer. This is how critical washing is done. I've heard it called counter-current washing, moving the print or part from the final part every few minutes, upstream, allows washing of prints as you generate them.
I've picked up a couple new never used print washers over the years. The amount of water these consume is extraordinary.

Almost all my archival washing, I rinse in hypo clearing agent, do a quick 1 minute tray wash. Then I have a slightly modified washer (Dunwright and Vogel) .,I fill the washer with water and simply circulate water at a brisk pace with a magnetic drive pump. After 10 minutes I drain the washer as quickly as possible, then refill with a fresh bucket of water, about 5 US gallons. Turn the pump back on, repeat. I usually run 3 cycles. Works great. If I was using these washers as originally designed you need high flow rates to get enough agitation.

Ai Print · Jun 26, 2020

mshchem said:
This is the only way to build a print washer. This is how critical washing is done. I've heard it called counter-current washing, moving the print or part from the final part every few minutes, upstream, allows washing of prints as you generate them.
I've picked up a couple new never used print washers over the years. The amount of water these consume is extraordinary.

Almost all my archival washing, I rinse in hypo clearing agent, do a quick 1 minute tray wash. Then I have a slightly modified washer (Dunwright and Vogel) .,I fill the washer with water and simply circulate water at a brisk pace with a magnetic drive pump. After 10 minutes I drain the washer as quickly as possible, then refill with a fresh bucket of water, about 5 US gallons. Turn the pump back on, repeat. I usually run 3 cycles. Works great. If I was using these washers as originally designed you need high flow rates to get enough agitation.

Using the re-circulator method is exactly what I do on both print washers and as of yesterday, my film washers too. I recently picked up a good clean Dunwright and Vogel 8x10 washer to be made into a film washing station. It has two garden hose attachments and can by it self wash all formats of film from 35mm to 8x10 and acts as a reservoir for the circulation of external washers. The washing action is far more than if I used it like a regular washer, really vigorous. I can and do regulate flow to the more delicate washers like the Alistair Inglis 4x5 washer shown attached.

I am going to use this same method when I design and build my mural print washer.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 26, 2020

You don't need a print washer to wash prints. And you don't need to use a lot of water either. I've always washed prints in a tray. Interleave the prints front/back/front/back and they won't stick together. Fill the tray with water, let the prints soak and move them one at a time from bottom to top. Change the water. Move them again. Let them soak. Do that a few times and the prints are good to go. If a print washer is too expensive, then this method works fine especially if you use a Hypo clearing agent. I just use Sodium Sulfite with nothing else. Toss a couple teaspoons into a tray and fill it with water.

NB23 · Jun 26, 2020

That is active print washing, and it ends up wearing out even the most easy going darkroom user out there. And it really impedes on printing, making each session a thing of 4-5 prints while it could be 15-20.

The purpose of a print washer is to be as much as possible out of the way. Drop-in-pull-out is the idea.

obviously, you are set in your ways and that’s fine. But me personally a printing session means 20 to 30 prints, minimum, of any size. Even 20x24.

Patrick Robert James said:
You don't need a print washer to wash prints. And you don't need to use a lot of water either. I've always washed prints in a tray. Interleave the prints front/back/front/back and they won't stick together. Fill the tray with water, let the prints soak and move them one at a time from bottom to top. Change the water. Move them again. Let them soak. Do that a few times and the prints are good to go. If a print washer is too expensive, then this method works fine especially if you use a Hypo clearing agent. I just use Sodium Sulfite with nothing else. Toss a couple teaspoons into a tray and fill it with water.

logan2z · Jun 26, 2020

NB23 said:
That is active print washing, and it ends up wearing out even the most easy going darkroom user out there. And it really impedes on printing, making each session a thing of 4-5 prints while it could be 15-20.

The purpose of a print washer is to be as much as possible out of the way. Drop-in-pull-out is the idea.

obviously, you are set in your ways and that’s fine. But me personally a printing session means 20 to 30 prints, minimum, of any size. Even 20x24.

Not to take this thread on a tangent, but I've heard several people talking about making 15-20 prints in a printing session. Can I assume you mean additional prints of negatives you've already printed, so it's just a matter of following a formula you've already worked out? I can't imagine starting that many prints from scratch and getting them finished in a single session. I'm lucky to get 1, maybe 2 prints completed from scratch in a printing session. Sometimes it will take me multiple sessions to complete a single print.

NB23 · Jun 26, 2020

logan2z said:
Not to take this thread on a tangent, but I've heard several people talking about making 15-20 prints in a printing session. Can I assume you mean additional prints of negatives you've already printed, so it's just a matter of following a formula you've already worked out? I can't imagine starting that many prints from scratch and getting them finished in a single session. I'm lucky to get 1, maybe 2 prints completed from scratch in a printing session. Sometimes it will take me multiple sessions to complete a single print.

My standard is 20, from scratch. And I’m very happy with all, and I am a perfectionist when it comes to my prints.

Here are 22 prints (16x20 FB) laid to dry and a few more are hung and dripping on the floor, as can be seen on the left. All in one session and all to my taste. Selenium toned. I went as much as 30 per day, and I’ve printed an average of 4 days a week from march until today, and I don’t plan to stop until november.

the white dot you see on the prints is not a shutter pinhole but actually my iphone’s flash reflection.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 26, 2020

NB23 said:
That is active print washing, and it ends up wearing out even the most easy going darkroom user out there. And it really impedes on printing, making each session a thing of 4-5 prints while it could be 15-20.

The purpose of a print washer is to be as much as possible out of the way. Drop-in-pull-out is the idea.

obviously, you are set in your ways and that’s fine. But me personally a printing session means 20 to 30 prints, minimum, of any size. Even 20x24.

What are you even talking about? Is this some kind of an ego post or something? Bizarre.

NB23 · Jun 26, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
What are you even talking about? Is this some kind of an ego post or something? Bizarre.

My ego?

You sure sound offended. A new social norm or something. You need help?

Patrick Robert James · Jun 26, 2020

NB23 said:
My ego?

You sure sound offended. A new social norm or something. You need help?

I'm perfectly fine Ned. Not sure why you would quote my post the brag about how many prints you make. Not offended, just perplexed. As far as social norms go, when you quote someone's post then give a contradicting opinion you are inviting a response. Like internet 101, duh. Of course then you went on to post a ton of prints in a thread about washing so the ego thing is pretty much transparent. But whatevs. You keep doing you....

NB23 · Jun 26, 2020

First, I quoted Logan2z’s post. I was answering his question.

About me quoting you, I think my propos was very clear: a print washer is much more effective than what you are doing. Should I excuse myself for pointing that out?

This is a discussion forum, sigh.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 26, 2020

NB23 said:
First, I quoted Logan2z’s post. I was answering his question.

About me quoting you, I think my propos was very clear: a print washer is much more effective than what you are doing. Should I excuse myself for pointing that out?

This is a discussion forum, sigh.

I've always avoided you on the internet over the years for this very reason. I could respond by pointing out why you are wrong, but it isn't worth my time.

Like I said Ned, you just keep doing you...

NB23 · Jun 27, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
I've always avoided you on the internet over the years for this very reason. I could respond by pointing out why you are wrong, but it isn't worth my time.

Like I said Ned, you just keep doing you...

Sure, your time is so valuable that you prefer to lose tons of it by washing prints the way you do instead of letting a proper print Washer do the job and actually make you gain time for other chores, like for example printing more. Just like I do.

20-30 per session. All high quality. Want to see pictures?

logan2z · Jun 27, 2020

NB23 said:
My standard is 20, from scratch. And I’m very happy with all, and I am a perfectionist when it comes to my prints.

Here are 22 prints (16x20 FB) laid to dry and a few more are hung and dripping on the floor, as can be seen on the left. All in one session and all to my taste. Selenium toned. I went as much as 30 per day, and I’ve printed an average of 4 days a week from march until today, and I don’t plan to stop until november.

the white dot you see on the prints is not a shutter pinhole but actually my iphone’s flash reflection.

View attachment 249203

View attachment 249204 View attachment 249205 View attachment 249206

Either this is atypical or I'm a super slow printer. Or both.

NB23 · Jun 27, 2020

logan2z said:
Either this is atypical or I'm a super slow printer. Or both.

I’d like to answer and continue this discussion, but It will annoy Patrick Robert James, even though I’m sure my input could be valuable to many who would do not actively participate in the discussion.

In case that my following answer gets mistaken for a narcissistic exercise by a sef-appointed pseudo-psychologist, I believe that printing 20 different prints is quite easy but it takes time (about 8 hours from start printing until they’re dropped in the washer. I let them soak overnight and wash them the next day while I’m printing the next session) and experience saves a lot of time and errors. Looking at the easel with the projected image gives a lot of informations about what needs to be dodged and burned, and by how much. This is the experience part.
Also, My printing sessions always involve negatives from a same batch/series, and we know that all frames within a single film require the same exposure on paper with only minor tweaks. This is a major shortcut.
And another shortcut is that all films developed in the same tank require the same printing filter (and exposure time on paper).

And there is the 10,000 hours to be an expert rule. I’m surely no master, but after having spent much more than the “required” 10,000 hours in the darkroom, coming up with 20-30 solid prints is a standard. Tedious but perfectly feasible. And you definitely need a print washer!

Paul Howell · Jun 27, 2020

In terms of a washer, I have 2, an archival and a drum washer, the drum washer will take up to 16X20, in past when I was showing and selling work very handy, kept the work flow moving. Unless I'm printing more than 5 maybe 7 prints, I use a tray. Although my drum washer will take a 16X20 I wash 16X20 in a plastic kiddie pool, on my patio, use a couple of Kodak tray siphons, and dry fiber base on screens that I can stack on my patio, at least in desert southwest summer dry in a few hours. By the way if my math is right 10,000 hours is 250 weeks, or 20 months, less than 2 years full time experience. I've been at for 55 years, still don't consider myself an expert.

removed account4 · Jun 27, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
You don't need a print washer to wash prints. And you don't need to use a lot of water either. I've always washed prints in a tray. Interleave the prints front/back/front/back and they won't stick together. Fill the tray with water, let the prints soak and move them one at a time from bottom to top. Change the water. Move them again. Let them soak. Do that a few times and the prints are good to go. If a print washer is too expensive, then this method works fine especially if you use a Hypo clearing agent. I just use Sodium Sulfite with nothing else. Toss a couple teaspoons into a tray and fill it with water.

this is what I do and have done for 30 years . Been submitted to state local and federal archives where they test for residual chemistry &c. Never an issue with submissions. I have an archival print washer a big one but haven’t used it since 1989. It was the biggest waste of $ I have bought.
using something like perma wash ( or similar ). as directed will do exactly as it says.

Maris · Jun 27, 2020

NB23 said:
Sure, your time is so valuable that you prefer to lose tons of it by washing prints the way you do instead of letting a proper print Washer do the job and actually make you gain time for other chores, like for example printing more. Just like I do.

20-30 per session. All high quality. Want to see pictures?

I work much the same way, 20 to 24 good prints 8x10 size per session. This enough to exhaust a litre of Dektol 1+2, a litre of stop bath, a litre of rapid fix 1+4, a litre of Hypo-Clear, and, most cruel, to thoroughly exhaust me.
The print washer, a Paterson Major, is then loaded up and the water tap is turned on. Between the tap and the Paterson washer is a cheap clockwork garden tap timer set to 45 minutes that ticks back to zero and shuts the water off. While this boring and noncreative task is happening I'm upstairs putting my aching darkroom legs up and having a Scotch or two; most pleasant.

logan2z · Jun 27, 2020

Maris said:
I work much the same way, 20 to 24 good prints 8x10 size per session.

I don't know how you guys do it. I feel thoroughly inadequate.

Maris · Jun 27, 2020

logan2z said:
I don't know how you guys do it. I feel thoroughly inadequate.

Sometimes it goes like this: Start early, say 7am, and I figure I'll work through 2 or 3 negatives that look promising.
Well, after a couple of hours I look at the darkroom clock and am shocked to note it's almost 5pm in the afternoon, the processing solutions are exhausted, the reject bin is full, the print washer is full and all the negative backlog has been caught up with. When the prints are coming out sweet one after another the momentum is irresistible.

NB23 · Jun 27, 2020

Maris said:
Sometimes it goes like this: Start early, say 7am, and I figure I'll work through 2 or 3 negatives that look promising.
Well, after a couple of hours I look at the darkroom clock and am shocked to note it's almost 5pm in the afternoon, the processing solutions are exhausted, the reject bin is full, the print washer is full and all the negative backlog has been caught up with. When the prints are coming out sweet one after another the momentum is irresistible.

Now you’re talking!

And of course, the experience isn’t free. I can’t recall how many times I had to throw all the prints I worked on for hours, the day after, because the drydow made them look like total sh*t. The lost money, the lost time... but as Maris describes so well: the satisfaction wins in the end.

hadeer · Jun 28, 2020

Patrick Robert James said:
You don't need a print washer to wash prints. And you don't need to use a lot of water either. I've always washed prints in a tray. Interleave the prints front/back/front/back and they won't stick together. Fill the tray with water, let the prints soak and move them one at a time from bottom to top. Change the water. Move them again. Let them soak. Do that a few times and the prints are good to go. If a print washer is too expensive, then this method works fine especially if you use a Hypo clearing agent. I just use Sodium Sulfite with nothing else. Toss a couple teaspoons into a tray and fill it with water.

That is a perfect method, when you don't have to do tons of prints in one session. I've used it for years and as I'm seventy - eight that is quite a time. To add one little thing to the discussion: to check if a print has been washed sufficiently, you can taste it. Take it out of the tray, let it drip off, and let the last drop fall on your tongue. If fixer is still contained in that drop, you will taste it right away. (it will be clear to everyone not to swallow then). I never had a yellowing or stained print all those years, and no health problems either (remember those 78 years). I am curious if anybody else use this trick, so let us know.

Andrew Kleinfeld · Jun 28, 2020

The very best are Salthill, no longer made, but occasionally available on ebay. But I actually do as well, judging by residual hypo testing, when I don't use a print washer. . The most important thing isn't the washer, according to testing, but the hypo clearing agent or sodium sulfite. As I recall, that's what Mysteries of the Vortex proved. For washing, a big high tray, like the kind you can stack dirty dishes in from a big dinner, works great. I rinse all the prints, then put them in the hypo clearing agent, then fill the giant tray with fresh water and agitate the prints in it pretty vigorously while I clean up the darkroom. Then I dump the water, drain each print, refill the giant tray, and let them soak. I dump and soak a few more times, with agitation when I walk into the darkroom from time to time, squeegee the prints, and test them. It's good enough to give me no tone or the lightest cream tone on the Kodak hypo estimator strip. An aquarium pump in the tray is nice. I can't keep water running because our well will run dry.

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