print paper format and borders

crypt47 · Mar 16, 2018

Hello everyone,

I'm just started my first darkroom prints and want to do everything correct from the start. So a few questions:

* I'm using a 24x30 paper (actually my measurements show 24x30.5). What is this standard and where it came from? Why not A4? How does it correlate with film frame format? I would be greatful if you can point me to any ISO standards to clarify what I'm dealing with.
* I'm using a simple easel which allows me to make fixed offsets from the edge. Are there any recomendations for it's size? I'm not going throuh complicated process of preparing my prints to exibition (like described in Way Beyond Monochrome) but rather interested in best precticies from impression point of view. How should I calculate the size of the borders? Is it ok to crop 35mm frame to keep 1.25 ratio? (I like evenly filled paper) How do professionals do?

p.s. to moderators:
I'm new to the forum, so if you move the topic to a more suitable section please notify me somehow cause I don't want to miss the replies.

AgX · Mar 16, 2018

Welcome to Apug!

Why film formats do not fit paper formats is a mystery...

darkosaric · Mar 16, 2018

Welcome to APUG !

Crop is ok - if you want to. What I do it printing full frame, and leave some white free place left and right on 24x30cm paper.

Regards,

MattKing · Mar 16, 2018

Welcome to Photrio (formerly APUG).
To a certain extent, paper size standards vary with geographic location, and reflect historical factors.
As an example, 30 cm x 37.5 cm (12" x 16") paper is much more common in the UK than it is in North America.
Historically, 5" x 7", 8" x 10" and 11" x 14" were common sizes in the US. Quarter plate, half plate and full plate (8.5" x 6.5") were more common in Europe. There apparently were different common standards in Japan.
As for the size of borders and whether you are permitted to crop, the decision is entirely up to what you prefer.
One thing you may want to consider though is what you want to do with your prints. If you plan to put them in albums or frame them and put them on the wall, it really helps to know what size prints fit easily in the "off-the-shelf" albums or frames/mats that are available to you. Otherwise you can find yourself needing custom materials, which are both harder to access and more expensive, or alternatively getting into cutting your own mats and/or making your own frames and albums.
When you are considering the size of borders, remember that the border areas provide you with an area for handling the prints.
As I cut my own mats, I tend toward at least 1/2 inch borders.
Hope this helps and that you have lots of fun printing!

spijker · Mar 16, 2018

Welcome to Photrio.

You'll find that the film photography industry is very conservative. You see it here too; Apug is history and Photrio is now but you still get the "welcome to apug". Paper formats are based on tradition and not on rational. In the peak days of film photography, 36x24mm was by far the most common film format but there is only 1 paper format (10 x 15 cm) that has the 3:2 aspect ratio. Standardising to the practical DIN A formats with an aspect ratio of 1:√2 is apparently too advanced. "We've always done it this way, so why change" seems to be the mindset. Ilford does A4 and Adox does A4 and A3 but it's probably hard to find it in stores.

So you're stuck with paper formats that do not match your film format. But you can print any way that suits you best. If you want to print the full negative, print with different border sizes for top/bottom and left/right. On 24x30.5cm I would probably print with a minimum 1cm border so that would mean an image area of 19x28.5 cm. Assuming a landscape orientation, the left/right border is then 1 cm and the top/bottom border is 2.5 cm. But you can also crop your negative to fit the paper aspect ratio. It's your choice, neither is right or wrong.

If you cut 30 x 40 cm paper in half, you have 20 x 30 cm which is the same aspect ratio as your negatives.

crypt47 · Mar 16, 2018

Thank you all for warm welcoming.

crypt47 · Mar 16, 2018

to MattKing:

Ok, thus it's more a region then photographic standards. I certanly helps, cause i'm going straight to darkroom.

to spijker:

Thanks for explaining it to me! I'll what DIN A is about. Practical examples you mentioned are also very helpful.

to MattKing and spijker:

So it's more a matter of personal standard. The same as with film and development practice you choose your way to do it and keep consistent. Right?

MattKing · Mar 16, 2018

crypt47 said:
So it's more a matter of personal standard. The same as with film and development practice you choose your way to do it and keep consistent. Right?

Right - but you may find that your choices evolve over time. As an example, since I started putting more of my photographs on display, I decided to both print larger and equip myself to cut my own mats.
This permitted me to crop differently, and use different borders.
All of which adds to the fun!

Saganich · Mar 16, 2018

MattKing said:
Welcome to Photrio (formerly APUG).
To a certain extent, paper size standards vary with geographic location, and reflect historical factors.
As an example, 30 cm x 37.5 cm (12" x 16") paper is much more common in the UK than it is in North America.
Historically, 5" x 7", 8" x 10" and 11" x 14" were common sizes in the US. Quarter plate, half plate and full plate (8.5" x 6.5") were more common in Europe. There apparently were different common standards in Japan.
As for the size of borders and whether you are permitted to crop, the decision is entirely up to what you prefer.
One thing you may want to consider though is what you want to do with your prints. If you plan to put them in albums or frame them and put them on the wall, it really helps to know what size prints fit easily in the "off-the-shelf" albums or frames/mats that are available to you. Otherwise you can find yourself needing custom materials, which are both harder to access and more expensive, or alternatively getting into cutting your own mats and/or making your own frames and albums.
When you are considering the size of borders, remember that the border areas provide you with an area for handling the prints.
As I cut my own mats, I tend toward at least 1/2 inch borders.
Hope this helps and that you have lots of fun printing!

Agreed. Final result desired has to be worked out ahead of time, which will indicate back print size. I in process doing that at the moment...What is max size 120mm print on 8x10 paper mounted on 11x14 board with at least a 2 inch boarder on short side?... 7x7 print.

Svenedin · Mar 16, 2018

The paper aspect ratios can be a bit irritating if you shoot a particular format. As others have said, only one paper size 4"x6" (10cmx15cm) works perfectly for 35mm negatives. With other sizes you either have to accept that part of the frame is cropped or leave borders. I often print 35mm on 8"x10" paper which is not really a good aspect ratio at all. Usually though the pictures crops acceptably. Sometimes though I don't want to crop and (in landscape orientation) I'll leave bigger borders top and bottom than at the sides. My photographs that I don't want to crop were usually taken with a wide angle lens.

If you start using different film formats such as 120 roll film you'll soon realise why the aspect ratios of paper can't match every format perfectly. In 120 there are multiple different frame sizes (6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9 etc) so in order for paper manufacturers to match aspect ratios in different sizes for every possible format would be impractical. It is a bit strange though that there aren't more "perfect fit" paper sizes for 35mm given how popular (and dominant) it was.

Ilford make A4 photographic paper. I have some but it is quite big (and so more expensive per sheet). I save it for my better photos.....which are few.

adelorenzo · Mar 16, 2018

There are no rules, of course, but only what works for you.

For me, when I make RC proof prints I normally use a speed easel and print to the paper size. For my final prints I print to the original film aspect ratio. I have found that when doing fiber prints for matting and framing a generous paper border really helps so I always print on larger size paper, for example I print a 12x15 or 12x16 image on 16x20 paper.

crypt47 · Mar 17, 2018

adelorenzo said:
There are no rules, of course, but only what works for you.

For me, when I make RC proof prints I normally use a speed easel and print to the paper size. For my final prints I print to the original film aspect ratio. I have found that when doing fiber prints for matting and framing a generous paper border really helps so I always print on larger size paper, for example I print a 12x15 or 12x16 image on 16x20 paper.

I see. Large paper borders (is this what called 'matting'? putting main photo on a larger list of paper to make additional borders?) for me is a luxury I believe. I'm going to use a print for two things: a final result of a photo and as a media two show for friends. Thus brining with me a folder with A4 papers seems like a logical way.

crypt47 · Mar 17, 2018

Svenedin said:
If you start using different film formats such as 120 roll film you'll soon realise why the aspect ratios of paper can't match every format perfectly.

True, this is what I thought about even without trying.

crypt47 · Mar 17, 2018

One thing I mentioned A4 is because it would be more convenient to scan a photo on flat bed scanner. 24x30 just makes edges to bend, but an A4 photopaper is in question to obtain so I don't consider this. Maybe there are scanners with wider glass, I don't know. Is here someone who do this?

RalphLambrecht · Mar 17, 2018

crypt47 said:
Hello everyone,

I'm just started my first darkroom prints and want to do everything correct from the start. So a few questions:

* I'm using a 24x30 paper (actually my measurements show 24x30.5). What is this standard and where it came from? Why not A4? How does it correlate with film frame format? I would be greatful if you can point me to any ISO standards to clarify what I'm dealing with.
* I'm using a simple easel which allows me to make fixed offsets from the edge. Are there any recomendations for it's size? I'm not going throuh complicated process of preparing my prints to exibition (like described in Way Beyond Monochrome) but rather interested in best precticies from impression point of view. How should I calculate the size of the borders? Is it ok to crop 35mm frame to keep 1.25 ratio? (I like evenly filled paper) How do professionals do?

p.s. to moderators:
I'm new to the forum, so if you move the topic to a more suitable section please notify me somehow cause I don't want to miss the replies.

final print and framingsizes are left to artistic considerations; art and standards are arch enemies; the mounting and framing process, shown in'Way beyond Monochrome' is one way some galleries and art museums like to display photographic prints.

lantau · Mar 17, 2018

Adox MCC fibre base paper and MCP resin coated papers are available in A4. Someone mentioned that Ilford has A4 as well. The Adox MCC ist additionally available in 20x30, close to A4 and in theory perfect for 35mm negatives. MCC ist also available in 30x30 and 40x40 for square negatives. I just bought a box of 30x30 and looking forward to using it.

jtk · Mar 23, 2018

fwiw, the photographers I worked with many years ago believed that cropping was as much a part of printing as was dodging & burning... The obsession with full=frame (often requiring black outline) is an affectation many bought into in the disco dancing era.

faberryman · Mar 23, 2018

jtk said:
fThe obsession with full=frame (often requiring black outline) is an affectation many bought into in the disco dancing era.

I print full frame without the emulsion edge showing in 35mm, 6x6 and 4x5. It is not an affection; it has nothing to do with disco dancing, and everything to do with in camera composition. Full frame printing has been with us since the beginning of photography with paper negatives and contact printing.

Sirius Glass · Mar 23, 2018

Svenedin said:
The paper aspect ratios can be a bit irritating if you shoot a particular format.

Damn it! Square is not peculiar! Square is the perfect format, just ask Hasselblad.

Welcome to ~~APUG~~ Photrio.

Svenedin · Mar 23, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Damn it! Square is not peculiar! Square is the perfect format, just ask Hasselblad.

Welcome to ~~APUG~~ Photrio.

I said "particular" not "peculiar"

jtk · Mar 23, 2018

faberryman said:
I print full frame without the emulsion edge showing in 35mm, 6x6 and 4x5. It is not an affection; it has nothing to do with disco dancing, and everything to do with in camera composition. Full frame printing has been with us since the beginning of photography with paper negatives and contact printing.

Sorry, you're historically mistaken .. It became an obsession same time, same people, as Disco and polyester suits. A non-athletic component of same trend. Perhaps I should have said "posture" rather than "affectation." Paper negs and contact printing are unrelated.

NedL · Mar 23, 2018

jtk said:
fwiw...... The obsession with full-frame (often requiring black outline) is an affectation many bought into in the disco dancing era.

Thanks, I didn't know that! And then there are those particularly peculiar square people too! They have a hard time printing on any available paper....

lantau · Mar 23, 2018

NedL said:
Thanks, I didn't know that! And then there are those particularly peculiar square people too! They have a hard time printing on any available paper....

There is nothing peculiar about printing a square negative onto square paper!

I didn't take one of the box alone, but it is square. 30cm x 30cm.

faberryman · Mar 23, 2018

jtk said:
Paper negs and contact printing are unrelated.

Paper negatives and contact printing are examples of full frame printing that pre-date disco by 150 years. Unlike disco, full frame printing was not invented in the 1980s.

NedL · Mar 23, 2018

lantau said:
There is nothing peculiar about printing a square negative onto square paper!
...
I didn't take one of the box alone, but it is square. 30cm x 30cm.

That's excellent, I didn't know it existed. I haven't tried MCC 110 myself but have heard nothing but good about it.

print paper format and borders

crypt47

AgX

darkosaric

MattKing

Moderator

spijker

crypt47

crypt47

MattKing

Moderator

Saganich

Svenedin

adelorenzo

crypt47

crypt47

crypt47

RalphLambrecht

lantau

jtk

faberryman

Sirius Glass

Svenedin

jtk

NedL

lantau

faberryman

NedL

print paper format and borders

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