Print Exchange Deadbeats

gr82bart · Mar 31, 2006

So after some PMs with the other Print Exchange Organizers Jeremy Moore, Carl Radford and PhotoPete, we have 14 deadbeats (2 repeat offenders) who owe 29 people prints.

So far there has been a deadbeat in every round of every print exchange, except Round 6 Group Print Exchange (since no one has PMed Jeremy yet).

You know who you are, so get printing and honour your committments!

Regards, Art.

ann · Mar 31, 2006

how sad.

And then some wonder why more people don't get involved!

donbga · Mar 31, 2006

gr82bart said:
So after some PMs with the other Print Exchange Organizers Jeremy Moore, Carl Radford and PhotoPete, we have 14 deadbeats (2 repeat offenders) who owe 29 people prints.

So far there has been a deadbeat in every round of every print exchange, except Round 6 Group Print Exchange (since no one has PMed Jeremy yet).

You know who you are, so get printing and honour your committments!

Regards, Art.

I think you should out the individuals publically if they are repeat offenders!

ras351 · Mar 31, 2006

What about a private blacklist maintained by the print exchange coordinators? You could ask for a reason from the non-contributing participant which is then put to a poll for the people who were participating in the exchange. If a certain percentage decide that the reason is not acceptable the non-contributing participant could be added to the blacklist and excluded for a certain number of months/years from taking part in print exchanges. I know I would be disappointed if I put the effort into making a print for an exchange and didn't receive one in return however there will be cases where the reason is legitimate (eg cyclones are wreaking havoc here at the moment).

Just a thought,
Roger.

John Bartley · Mar 31, 2006

Art,

I'm on your list of "deadbeats". I owe a print. I have communicated with my creditor and we have an arrangement.

You seem to have a fixation on this "deadbeat" thing, so why don't you quit beating around the bush, print the list, get it out of your system and move on? Otherwise, drop it.

cheers

John_Brewer · Mar 31, 2006

While I agree there maybe legitimate problems for some people, I think repeat offenders should at least be known to the exchange coordinators.

david b · Mar 31, 2006

Albuquerque NM has just passed legislation that will post DWI offenders in the Sunday paper.

gr82bart · Mar 31, 2006

ras351 said:
What about a private blacklist maintained by the print exchange coordinators?

That's what we have.

You could ask for a reason from the non-contributing participant which is then put to a poll for the people who were participating in the exchange.

It's up to the individual organizers how they want to handle daedbeats. If I get a PM, I'll send a PM to the person concerned. Most say they will send their print and do, but a small few eventually don't respond.

Remember these PMs are sent long after the due date and only after PMs have been sent by the recipients or organizers. Many are active posters though - one even asked for donations of darkroom equipment and materials.

A few have left APUG permanently. One in the Blind Exchange, where I felt bad for the jilted recipient, whom I recruited to participate, I sent him a print personally.

I'm not into more work for the organizers with the poll thing. We're volunteers as it is and people should honour their committments like adults or PM the organizer if they can't. If the person asked gives a reason, fine, but when they don't respond, that's another matter.

I know I would be disappointed if I put the effort into making a print for an exchange and didn't receive one in return however there will be cases where the reason is legitimate.

There are maybe two people that I would put into the category of 'deadbeat waiver', the rest should just stop procrastinating, get printing and send their print(s).

People on the deadbeat list will not be allowed to particpate in any print exchange, by agreement of all the print exchange organizers.

We may want to extend that to any member organized function?

Regards, Art.

gr82bart · Mar 31, 2006

John_Brewer said:
I think repeat offenders should at least be known to the exchange coordinators.

They are.

This private blacklist only names those that we are told of. If we aren't told of anyone, they are not on our list.

Regards, Art.

gr82bart · Mar 31, 2006

Make that 15 deadbeats now, owing 32 prints. I just got another PM.

Regards, Art.

ras351 · Mar 31, 2006

Art,

If you have a process in place to deal with non-contributing participants which you are happy with then fine. If you're unhappy yet not willing to change anything then I'm puzzled as to the purpose of your initial post. Telling people to expedite their printing in a public forum without naming them would appear to serve little purpose - a PM or email would work just as well.

Roger.

gr82bart · Mar 31, 2006

ras351 said:
If you have a process in place to deal with non-contributing participants which you are happy with then fine. If you're unhappy yet not willing to change anything then I'm puzzled as to the purpose of your initial post. Telling people to expedite their printing in a public forum without naming them would appear to serve little purpose - a PM or email would work just as well.

So let's be clear. I'm one of the organizers. Yes I am jilted recipient too, but believe it or not, I don't personally care. I care about the particpants in my exchange who do not get a print and who because of their poor experience don't particpate and probably tell others not to as well. That's what I care about. It is the NUMBER 1 reason more people do not particpate in the print exchanges. (Number 2 has to do with the 'quality' of the prints they recieve, but that's another contraversy!)

So what's with all the secrecy?

Well, A while ago I asked the question what to do with all the deadbeats via a poll. It was clear that no one wanted anyone on the list to be named publically. I think I was called a Nazi in one PM or post for even asking the question. Two people dropped out of the exchanges because I had the gall to care about other particpants not getting their prints.

So I personally have been sending PMs. Many, many PMs. Lots of promises sent back and then for some, nothing, no response, nothing, no prints, but theye are active APUGers still.

This is what I have to deal with. Now if no one cares, but me, then fine, I will leave this all well alone and if you participate and don't get a print, too bad. Deal with it.

I'm just trying get ADULTS to honour their committment. If that makes me bad. So be it for now, but I'm willing to let the deadbeats off too, if that's what everyone wants.

Regards, Art.

komet · Mar 31, 2006

Is the Postcard Exchange not covered by this deadbeat list?

anthony

ras351 · Mar 31, 2006

gr82bart said:
So let's be clear. I'm one of the organizers. Yes I am jilted recipient too, but believe it or not, I don't personally care. I care about the particpants in my exchange who do not get a print and who because of their poor experience don't particpate and probably tell others not to as well. That's what I care about.

Art,

I was not judging you - I was trying to determine the reasoning behind this thread. It sounds like you are not happy with the process currently in place in which case you, and the other print exchange coordinators, should consider changing it. The reason I suggested the poll is because it removes the coordinator from the line of fire and allows the people who are directly effected to decide the outcome. Place a reasonable deadline for this poll and any person who fails to provide prints after this time goes on 'trial'. Detailing the commitment up front would perhaps make people use more careful consideration before they put down their name yet still give them an out under exceptional circumstances. Having an expiry date on the blacklist allows for reform. As mentioned they are just some thoughts which may be helpful for future exchanges. Yes, it will be more work but it may also be fairer. For those curious I'm not on the deadbeat list.

Regards,
Roger.

donbga · Mar 31, 2006

gr82bart said:
That's what we have.

one even asked for donations of darkroom equipment and materials.

Now we know the id of one of the deadbeats.

I'm being sort of tongue and check here but I do think there should be a policy in place and I think excluding the blacklistees from exchanges should be enough of a rebuke.

blaze-on · Mar 31, 2006

Publicly referencing these individuals as deadbeats, named or not named, is uncool.

Until you kow all the facts, I would refrain from future posts like this.

I'm not one of them BTW...but I'd be pissed if I was.

Move on...

Bruce Osgood · Mar 31, 2006

I've not been in any print exchange so I'm not one of the "deadbeats" (But you have forced me into defending myself before I've voiced an opinion (Not Cool).

The entire issue of who's a deadbeat and who's not has absolutely no relevance to the group (except in a voyeuristic way). This is only important to the moderator(s) who should be doing the best they can to keep the Exchange going, or find someone who will. I don't appreciate your airing dirty laundry in a public forum for whatever personal purpose you have.

And don't give that B.S. your doing your job, you're not when you can't handle the messy parts.

donbga · Mar 31, 2006

blaze-on said:
Publicly referencing these individuals as deadbeats, named or not named, is uncool.

Until you kow all the facts, I would refrain from future posts like this.

I'm not one of them BTW...but I'd be pissed if I was.

Move on...

FWIW, I've been doing print exchanges here and other palces on the net for years. I've never been stiffed so to speak so I really don't have any hard feelings to vent about, but I think public candor about this topic is okay and should be openly discuseed.

The fact is, as I understand it, is they didn't fulfill their commitment and didn't respond to PMs. I think it is fair to discuss this idea in public because it does affect those of us who do participate and fulfill their commitments.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 31, 2006

I don't know if I've been "stiffed." I don't keep track of who "owes" me a print, but I do keep a list of who I owe a print to. Sometimes it takes a while for me to get prints out, but they do get out eventually.

I did back out of an exchange once on another forum, because I just didn't have time to make the deadline, but by the same token, I didn't receive any of the other prints in the exchange, since the organizer collected all the prints into portfolios and then redistributed them to those who had sent a print.

I suppose if we wanted to make sure the exchange was always equal, we could send all the prints to the organizer, and when they were all in place, the organizer would send them all out in this way. Maybe those who are really worried about this aspect of the print exchanges should establish an exchange in this form and call it the "Guaranteed Exchange" or some such, where no one will receive any prints unless they send one in. It would be a lot less unpleasant than acting like a collection agency.

jeffneedham · Mar 31, 2006

all of the hostility around here really surprises me. these exchanges are a great idea. i just joined in one, and have already fulfilled my "obligation". all this talk of being "owed" a print seems to be getting nasty.

if you're going to sign up, then you might as well participate. if i don't receive a print, i'll be upset. i put some time and effort into making the prints (i sent two to my recipient), not to mention the five bucks it cost to send the package from the states to the UK.

by signing up for an exchange, you are making a commitment. maybe there should be a clause posted - if you sign up, flake out and fail to send your buddy a print, we'll arrange for a jailhouse style tattoo that reads "I'm a slacker" to be placed on your forehead, backwards of course, so you can read it in the mirror.

Nige · Apr 1, 2006

komet said:
Is the Postcard Exchange not covered by this deadbeat list?

anthony

Hi Anthony,

So far the postcard list hasn't been part of the deadbeats but I'm kept in the loop. Rnd 5 had good participation with only one person not fullfulling their commitments. Hopefully we'll get a perfect score this round.

regards, Nige.

gr82bart · Apr 1, 2006

blaze-on said:
Publicly referencing these individuals as deadbeats, named or not named, is uncool.

So what do we call them? Some of these people haven't honoured their committment for more than a year and are still actively members of APUG?

Until you kow all the facts, I would refrain from future posts like this.

So after several PMs have been sent to these folks over 6 months with no response and empty promises, but they're still active APUGers, we should just leave them alone?

I'm not one of them BTW...but I'd be pissed if I was.

And the people who honoured their committment but didn't get a print?

Move on...

One more vote to let the deadbeats off. Fine by me.

Regards, Art.

gr82bart · Apr 1, 2006

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
I've not been in any print exchange so I'm not one of the "deadbeats" (But you have forced me into defending myself before I've voiced an opinion (Not Cool).

I suggest YOU know all the facts first before you post idiocy like this.

The entire issue of who's a deadbeat and who's not has absolutely no relevance to the group (except in a voyeuristic way). This is only important to the moderator(s) who should be doing the best they can to keep the Exchange going, or find someone who will. I don't appreciate your airing dirty laundry in a public forum for whatever personal purpose you have.

I'm not airing dirty laundry!?! I'm bringing up an issue that has had a negative effect on these exchanges - the NUMBER 1 reason more people do not particpate - and the issue is growing. This thread is about what to do. So far for several months, things have been done behind the scenes with little to no effect.

BTW the moderators have nothing to do with the exchanges, it's the volunteer organizers who do.

And don't give that B.S. your doing your job, you're not when you can't handle the messy parts.

You need to really KNOW what you're writing about before you make a post. I won't even correct your errors in this statement here.

Regards, Art.

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 1, 2006

Frankly, I'm all in favor of some kind of punitive action against people who sign up for print exchanges but refuse to send their prints. There should be some kind of system in place however, before said punitive action occurs. IE if they fail to respond to 3 PMs in 3 months, some APUG priviledge will be suspended (lock their gallery from more postings, no more than 2 posts per day, no access to the classifieds, you decide). That rule set needs to be in place BEFORE the print exchange starts, so that they know what the consequences are for not playing through before they sign up.

Karate Dad · Apr 1, 2006

I agree with several of the posters here. If the number 1 reason for not participating is due to broken exchanges, and you want to improve the process, you need to look at a proactive process similar to what David describes. Although that process increases the amount of work the exchange coordinator must perform, it guarantees that nobody receives a print if they didn't send a print. If increasing participation via eliminating broken exchanges is truely paramount, the extra work should be inconsequential.
If you are looking to simply limit the damage without revamping the process, then it certainly makes sense to prevent people who have a history of creating broken exchanges to continue to participate in print exchanges. I don't think this should be a universal rule however. If the exchange coordinator chooses to look at the black list and limit participation it should be up to them. I would imagine that the coordinator should post the participation rules that the specific exchange is using so that people can choose to participate or not based on what they feel their risk might be.

John

Print Exchange Deadbeats

gr82bart

ann

donbga

ras351

John Bartley

John_Brewer

david b

gr82bart

gr82bart

gr82bart

ras351

gr82bart

komet

ras351

donbga

blaze-on

Bruce Osgood

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David A. Goldfarb

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