preventing and removing water marks

Robin Guymer · Aug 26, 2019

I tried multiple techniques and finally use this that leaves me with near perfectly watermark clear negs every time.
2nd final rinse using 1 drop of adaflo or photoflo or dishwashing liquid to 700 ml of water. Wash the film up and down vigorously in the Patterson tank with lid off for 60 sec.
Final rinse removes the soapy flo but leaves enough residue of flo that the water falls off easier - remove from tank and gently wash under running water through one side of the spool then flip over and through the other side.
Shake reel to remove bulk of water. Now I slide the spool onto a long torch handle that has a rubber stopper at the bulb end, but you could use a long screw driver or make something. Vigorously shake the reel so it bounces against the stop end for about 60 sec then flip over on the reel and shake the other way. I gauge when the water stops coming off the film and reel by shaking it towards my exposed wrist. You will be amazed how much water keeps coming off.
Peel film off the reel carefully and slowly and hang to dry in dust free area - Do Not Sqeegy!

There will still be the occasional neg that has a watermark where a larger droplet evaporated. Buy some digital camera sensor cleaners on eBay. Using a touch of liquid on the nano cloth wipe gently over the neg and use a puffer to dry. Then the neg is good for scanning or enlarging.

tezzasmall · Aug 26, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I'm trying a rerinse (3min distilled water, using agitation stick, in three one minute cycles), and a soak in my wetting agent (about 3 minutes) and hang drying, this time with two clips instead of one.
also using my fingers as a squeegee three times over.

You seem to be doing the right procedure, from what you've written.

One thing though = DON'T expect the film to be ANY WAY NEAR DRY after you have used your fingers down it a few times, it will still may be wet in places with even the odd drip of moisture on the film, but it should dry fine with no further help. Just put it to hand in a dust free area! (BTW I also dip my hand in the photo-flo solution and then do a quick shake of the hand before doing the previous = 'squeegeeing with my fingers').

Terry S

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Aug 29, 2019

OK, so I just developed a new roll- distilled water only, final wash using 5-10-20 with an extra minute agitation, three drops kodak photoflo out of a pipette, ran it through a sponge (explanation below), and almost immediately after hanging I saw marks. I'm thinking I either need some fixer remover, or my apartment is not a good place to develop film. I'm going to (hopefully next week) try cleaning these in a legitimate darkroom. if not, then I'll try refixing and see what happens.

sponge clearing:
so one of my photographer friends suggested I get a dollar store sponge, cut it in half, dampen it, then run the film through the halves (gently) and then sold me some kodak photo flo. He told me he's used both and they work great.

Kino · Aug 29, 2019

Unless the water you used to mix the chemicals is loaded with minerals, that sounds like too much photoflo; one drop in a tank is more than enough. 1 part in 200.

Dollar store sponges have starch in them to make them stiff. Just dip your fingers in the tank after you pull the film out and gently pull between your fingers...

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Aug 29, 2019

also, is there a way to test a water's hardness? if I could just use tap water as a final wash that would help me a great deal.

Sirius Glass · Aug 29, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
also, is there a way to test a water's hardness? if I could just use tap water as a final wash that would help me a great deal.

The water in the Washington DC area and Los Angeles is very hard and I have not needed to use distilled water with any photo chemistry.

Doremus Scudder · Aug 30, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
also, is there a way to test a water's hardness? if I could just use tap water as a final wash that would help me a great deal.

You can wash your film with tap water. The only thing you need distilled water for is the final rinse/soak. Mix your Photo Flo as directed, or a bit weaker. If you have hard water, you'll need a longer soak in the final distilled/PhotoFlo bath to leach out the dissolved minerals. My water is moderately hard; I like a three-minute soak. With harder water, up to five minutes is needed.

I think getting the excess water from your film is a good idea. I've had the best luck with running film between index and middle fingers (clean and uncalloused fingers!). You only want to get rid of excess water, not squeegee the film dry like a window. Hang to dry in a dust-free place and you're good to go. This is not rocket science.

Best,

Doremus

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Aug 31, 2019

Just tried a sink wash, followed by a distilled soak, no streaks but now there's spots. I will keep trying. I think I'm on the right path.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 1, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
Just tried a sink wash, followed by a distilled soak, no streaks but now there's spots. I will keep trying. I think I'm on the right path.

If you're not using a wetting agent, you'll get "spots" if you leave droplets on your film due to the stress on the emulsion from the different rates of drying. Wetting agent is really the easiest way to go along with a light swipe with clean and soft fingers to remove excess water before hanging to dry. You can combine the distilled soak with the wetting agent. Don't mix Photo Flo or any other wetting agent haphazardly. Start with the recommended dilution and see how far you can reduce the amount of concentrate before the surfactant effect is compromised. Then find a value between that point and the recommended dilution and use that for your system. If you mix Photo Flo with distilled water, you can safely reduce the amount of concentrate by about 25-30% in my experience. If you have any beads of water on your film after treatment in the wetting agent, it's not doing its job!

Best,

Doremus

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Sep 1, 2019

This could be an issue with my new apartment- as negatives I developed at my parents place almost completely clear (found one stop on a frame I don't care about but that's it). Going to have to try to get into a legitimate darkroom soon.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Sep 1, 2019

Doremus Scudder said:
If you're not using a wetting agent, you'll get "spots" if you leave droplets on your film due to the stress on the emulsion from the different rates of drying. Wetting agent is really the easiest way to go along with a light swipe with clean and soft fingers to remove excess water before hanging to dry. You can combine the distilled soak with the wetting agent. Don't mix Photo Flo or any other wetting agent haphazardly. Start with the recommended dilution and see how far you can reduce the amount of concentrate before the surfactant effect is compromised. Then find a value between that point and the recommended dilution and use that for your system. If you mix Photo Flo with distilled water, you can safely reduce the amount of concentrate by about 25-30% in my experience. If you have any beads of water on your film after treatment in the wetting agent, it's not doing its job!

Best,

Doremus

I think you may be onto something with the wetting agent, recommended dilution is 1-200 and I've did threeish drops. will have to wait to get some syringes due to money concerns.

MattKing · Sep 2, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I think you may be onto something with the wetting agent, recommended dilution is 1-200 and I've did threeish drops. will have to wait to get some syringes due to money concerns.

Pharmacies often can supply inexpensive syringes which are designed for measuring baby medicine.
Or you could follow the procedure I posted above.

chris77 · Sep 2, 2019

photoflow is unnecessary imo.
a longish rinse/wash in demineralised water is a 100% guarantee for no watermarks in my experience.
i tap on the hanging strip with my my fingers to throw off as many big drops as possible.
works for me.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 2, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I think you may be onto something with the wetting agent, recommended dilution is 1-200 and I've did threeish drops. will have to wait to get some syringes due to money concerns.

Two things that cost nothing: Kodak gives instructions for using the bottle cap as a measure for mixing the proper dilution. If that gives you too much solution, then you can get an eyedropper and count drops into a graduated cylinder to determine how many drops make up a given unit, e.g., how many drops per ml or the like. If you always use the same eyedropper at about the same ambient temperature, this is a fairly accurate way to measure small quantities.

Or, do as Matt suggests and go to your local pharmacy and get a couple of syringes (I've got lots this way). Make sure you get ones marked in ml and increments thereof, not IU (units) unless you want to convert. This might cost you a couple bucks...

Best,

Doremus

MattKing · Sep 2, 2019

Doremus Scudder said:
Kodak gives instructions for using the bottle cap as a measure for mixing the proper dilution.

I don't think the current packaging includes this - the caps are too big.

cliveh · Sep 2, 2019

No photo flow or wetting agent. After wash, dunk and agitate in de-ionised water for 30 seconds. No water marks.

Sirius Glass · Sep 2, 2019

cliveh said:
No photo flow or wetting agent. After wash, dunk and agitate in de-ionised water for 30 seconds. No water marks.

But that depends on your water. So if you want to push your method, we will all show up at your place to process film. Otherwise PhotoFlo or other surfactant is strongly recommended. Meanwhile, please post your address so I can drop in next week to develop a dozen rolls of film. Which developer will you be providing for us?

Vaughn · Sep 2, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
also, is there a way to test a water's hardness? if I could just use tap water as a final wash that would help me a great deal.

Try your water supplier (private company or public agency) -- they often will have a breakdown of their water quality -- dissolved minerals, pH, etc.

I just looked mine up -- a hardness of 87...moderately hard (ratings: soft, mod.hard, hard, and very hard). No pH info.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Sep 2, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
But that depends on your water. So if you want to push your method, we will all show up at your place to process film. Otherwise PhotoFlo or other surfactant is strongly recommended. Meanwhile, please post your address so I can drop in next week to develop a dozen rolls of film. Which developer will you be providing for us?

D76 and caffenol- but you guys have to pay for your own fares.

Vaughn said:
Try your water supplier (private company or public agency) -- they often will have a breakdown of their water quality -- dissolved minerals, pH, etc.

I just looked mine up -- a hardness of 87...moderately hard (ratings: soft, mod.hard, hard, and very hard). No pH info.

maybe I'll try when I'm not tired.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Sep 5, 2019

I just realized, I don't need syringes because my pipettes are labeled.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 10, 2019

MattKing said:
I don't think the current packaging includes this - the caps are too big.

Obviously, my supplies of Photo Flo are ancient. I've got two different formulations too.

Doremus

Sirius Glass · Sep 10, 2019

Doremus Scudder said:
Obviously, my supplies of Photo Flo are ancient. I've got two different formulations too.

Doremus

Its like wine and bicycles, both improve with age.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Sep 19, 2019

Update time:
first off, my air conditioner in my apartment wasn't working correctly- as when I set it to cool it would heat up the room because some valve was switched. since that happened, I have had some rewashing success.
I got a rollei ortho 25 clean, and an old tri-x clean with the exception of the first frame, but I'm still calling it a success.
Now, I can't seem to get an hp5 roll clean, and it looks like a second one I just developed tonight will probably have similar issues.
I have yet to try my Kodachrome caffenol experiments.
Photo Flo was used in all cases.

preventing and removing water marks

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