Press cameras in the UK

wiseowl · Aug 19, 2010

Hi,

of late I've been contemplating getting a press camera to try hand held 5x4 work. I'm uk based so it would need to be something relatively easy to get hold of over here. I'm aware of MPP, and of course there's the American Speed Graphic et al, not to mention the Linhof's which are just out of my price range.

Can anyone offer advice as to a good model to go with, not too expensive with reasonable features, such as some front standard movements, a rangefinder and if possible a focal plane shutter? Any thoughts welcomed.

Martin

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2010

MPP Mk VII, but they fetch far more than their true value, based on the WWII Linhof Technika but no shutter. The Toyo based on the Super Graphic is often quite cheap but again no FP shutter.

I use a Crown Graphic for hand held work, very cheap just buy from the US, but very limited movements.

Ian

steven_e007 · Aug 19, 2010

I've just done exactly the same thing... got into 5 X 4 (again) that is.... only my press camera was discovered in my own loft when I tidied it a few months ago

If you want a focal plane shutter you basically have a choice of Speed Graphic, and er... that's it!

There are a few others, obviously, but so rare you can't really go out and find one - you just have to hope something happens along...

I've also got an MPP (a mark III). In many ways this is a great camera - much more technical than a graphic, lots more movements etc. But these are features that mean it really is at it's best on a tripod (in a studio, probably) - and I don't believe any of the range had an FP shutter. I think one could be strapped on as an alternative back - but good luck finding one of those!

You could try eebbeegeebay USA - there would be a much bigger choice - but the import costs might just double the price.

Alternatively there are a few options in 6 X 9 - but then were in the wrong forum (Mamiya Press) or Quarter plate - but then we're talking old, antique and collectable rather than useable. Can't think of much else.

I do recommend a Speed Graphic, though. I'm getting very fond of mine.

paul_c5x4 · Aug 19, 2010

Ian Grant said:
MPP Mk VII, but they fetch far more than their true value, based on the WWII Linhof Technika but no shutter.

The MPP MkVII can be had for (relative) peanuts if you hit lucky - The last one I bought cost £120 along with a QuickLoad holder and six boxes of film

fotch · Aug 19, 2010

Nothing beats a Speed Graphic, probably one of the worlds most popular pro cameras. Although, myself, I prefer the Crown Graphic because its a bit lighter. I have both.

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2010

paul_c5x4 said:
The MPP MkVII can be had for (relative) peanuts if you hit lucky - The last one I bought cost £120 along with a QuickLoad holder and six boxes of film

Yes if you hit lucky !!!!! They often fetch up to £400, rarely go for less than £300 these days.

ian

Sirius Glass · Aug 19, 2010

Either a Pacemaker Crown or Speed Graphic. I have a Pacemaker Speed Graphic. Ask around for who is selling at graflex.org.

Steve

Andrew K · Aug 19, 2010

I've been lucky and have owned and used several of these - Speed Graphics, Crown Graphic, Pacemaker, MPP Technical (early one - Mk 3 maybe??), MPP Press (Micropress??) - all have been fun to use.

If I was tripod mounting and using movements then would get a MPP - even an early one is capable of fantastic results, although movements will depend on the lens you get (you can move a bit with a 135mm, but only about 8mm before they vignette...)

If you are handholding then I would consider a Speed/Crown/Pacemeker, as the wooden bodies make them far lighter and easier to hand hold.....

On the other hand - if you are looking at US Ebay - then have a look at the Busch Press and Bourke and James Press cameras - these have rangefinders, rotating backs, some movements, and are generally cheaper than a speed graphic....

I can't comment on UK pricing, but I've picked up several 5x4 press cameras in Australia, and from the US for under $150 US with lens..you just need to be patient

fotch · Aug 20, 2010

B&J and Busch Press cameras are fine cameras, however, with Press Cameras, unlike View or Field cameras, its easy enough to rotate the entire camera. A rotating back on a press camera is as useless as it would be on a 35mm RF. The Pacemaker Graphics are nice and light.

Ian Grant · Aug 20, 2010

A down side to the Busch Pressman is the lens board size is quite restricting.

The MPP MicroPress is a Speed Graphic in disguise, a bit heavier as well, they are often very cheap but share the same restrictions as their US cousin. The film plane register isn't usually correct either, MPP did't use the International standard early on.

Ian

2F/2F · Aug 20, 2010

If you want a Linhof, but think they are out of range, look for a Linhof Technika III with an original matched lens and cam. A bit, but not a ton, more money than a Speed or Crown Graphic, but more capable if doing anything other than hand held work...and they are built like brick outhouses (and have the weight to prove it: 6 to 7 pounds). In order for accurate rangefinder focusing to be guaranteed, the model IIIs must be mated to a lens and cam pair that have been matched to each single camera body, either at the time of manufacture, or at a later date by Linhof or an outside service technician.

Because the IIIs are relatively undesirable due to the quirk I mentioned, and skimpy features compared to later Linhofs, they can be had for a great bargain. However, I think they are very high quality cameras that are capable of quite a lot. (I have two of them.)

There is also a Super Graphic and Super Speed Graphic, which are very-late-model Graflex press cameras similar to the Technika III (but without rear movements, other than a rotating back). They are high-quality cameras IMO, though not the engineering and craftsmanship gems that Technikas are. (I have one Speed Graphic.)

The problem with any Graphic but the two I mentioned (e.g. Pacemaker, Anniversary, or pre-Anniversary models) comes when you want to use different lenses for hand held shooting. Recalibrating the rangefinder for different lenses can be done, but it is not an "in the field" operation. It requires removing the flash bracket if you have a Graflex bracket (as opposed to a Heiland or some other type), and requires removing the cover for the rangefinder and fiddling with the small adjustment screws inside. You need a tape measure too. The whole thing takes 20 to 30 minutes for me. However, if all you want to use is one lens, I would recommend one hands down, due to their great value, i.e. "bang for the buck" (or "bang for the quid," in your case.)

The Speed Graphic will meet your requirement for a focal plane shutter, if you decide after all that this is what you want. None of the others I mentioned will.

Steve Smith · Aug 20, 2010

Does anyone here own a Meridian press camera? I have seen pictures but not actually seen one. They do look good.

http://graflex.org/articles/meridian/

Steve.

Ian Grant · Aug 20, 2010

Remember the Super Graphic tooling etc was sold to Toyo so they made essentially the same camera.

The Super Graphic was 15-20 years to late, it was Graflex's answer to the European MPP's and Linhof's but by then they'd lost too much ground and the company folded a few years later.

Ian

P C Headland · Aug 20, 2010

The MPP Micropress camera can sometimes be found for reasonable money, usually quite a but less than the Microtechnical cameras. They have an inbuilt rangefinder on the top, and a focal plane shutter. The RF is cammed to the lens. I seem to recall all (or at least most) come with a spring back. They do seem to have some relationship with buses though, as for ages you'll not see any (on Ebay UK), then a bunch of them all come at once.

I have shot my MPP Microtechnical MK VII handheld.

There were some 9x12cm folders that were used as press cameras, and had rangefinders on them.

paul_c5x4 · Aug 20, 2010

There is an MPP Micropress on ebay at the moment - 330369737466 - All I can say is... What an overpriced piece of $&*%.

Ian Grant · Aug 20, 2010

That one's been for sale for over 2 years, and is in poor condition. I offered to restore it last year.

A nice Crown Graphic + lens sold yesterday for $125 that's more realistic.

Ian

wiseowl · Aug 20, 2010

Thanks for all the good advice. Plenty for me to think about, all I need now is to make a decision, that's the hard part.

Martin

steven_e007 · Aug 20, 2010

2F/2F said:
However, if all you want to use is one lens, I would recommend one hands down, due to their great value, i.e. "bang for the buck" (or "bang for the quid," in your case.)

.

I have never, ever heard anyone over here use the expression 'Bang for the quid!' !!!

I think it must lose something in translation?

As for prices, I blame eeebeeegeeebay. I bought my Speed Graphic from a camera fair (anyone remember those?) for £50 ($70 ish?)

I bought the MPP Mark VII from, believe it or not, Jessops (Much miligned camera dealer that went 'bad ways'... all d*****l!)

I thought at the time I was being ripped off, as the camera had been dropped and the bed wasn't quite perfectlyu true to the body any more. Actually, it doesn't affect the operation, but it is not quite cosmetically good enough to be a collectors piece. I tried to beat them down and the guy behind the counter agreed - but was over-ruled by his boss who stuck to the ticket price. I maybe should have walked away, but... GAS attack. £90...
It was about 10 years ago - but even so, if I'd known then what I know now - well, I'd have bought every Petzval lens I ever saw, for a start!
Few would have cost me much more than the price of a cup of coffee 10 or 15 years ago, either...

2F/2F · Aug 20, 2010

steven_e007 said:
I have never, ever heard anyone over here use the expression 'Bang for the quid!' !!!

I think it must lose something in translation?

Indeed. I meant it as a bit of a joke, because it sounded so funny. (I thought that the joke might go bad if the expression actually did exist in England. )

"Bang for the buck" is a common expression here meaning that something is a good value; i.e. something that has a lot going for it and has a lower price than one might expect, therefore you get more features and functionality per dollar spent on it than you would with a higher-rent item. E.g. "A Linhof is a better camera than a Graflex, but the Graflex is a better bang for the buck. It can do 75 percent of what the Linhof does, but is about 25 percent as expensive."

steven_e007 · Aug 21, 2010

Bang for the buck is fine by me, I think most Brits are pretty fluent in Americanisms... it must be all the episodes of 'Friends' and 'Seinfeld' we watch

I'm not actually sure what the British English equivalent would be... not sure there is one?

But anyway, not wishing to get off topic, I reckon the Speed Graphic has to be the best bang for the buck, too... I'm certainly having lots of fun with mine at the moment.

Steve S · Aug 23, 2010

I suppose the question to ask is why do you want a focal plane shutter? The main reason people ( including me!) tend to go for these now is that they allow you to use some nice old barrel (unshuttered) lenses outside in good light. Indoors you could use them on any camera using the "hat over the lens" shutter of course. As you are wanting to do hand held 5x4 though, I would tend to agree that the Crown Graphic is a good choice as it is lighter than the equivalent Speed Graphic. Couple it with a 135mm or 150mm Xenar in its own Compur shutter and you are on the way.
A further problem with focal plane shutter equipped 5x4 cameras especially if you are buying off Ebay is the actual working state of the shutter. You could easily end up with a heavier camera and a non working shutter. I would seek some guarantee from the vendor that the shutter is firing at approximately correct speeds (give or take 1 stop) and that there are no pinholes in the shutter blinds. It may be worth a gamble on a camera in an indeterminate state if the price is right though. This is how I got my MPP Micropress which took half a day to clean up and a lot of shutter exercise to get running correctly.
A further point as mentioned earlier is that you will need to check focusing. If you are very, very lucky the Kalart etc rangefinder will give you correct focus with the lens supplied. The chances are that it won't and you will need to either reset the Kalart (fiddly but worth the effort) or create a focusing scale and use a separate rangefinder or use the ground glass to focus. All these will work well.
Good luck whichever route you take. This is a fascinating and very different way to photograph the world if you have previously just used SLRs.

wiseowl · Aug 23, 2010

Good point about the shutter, although I don't have any old barrel lenses it is an area I would like to experiment with. I've some experience of using 5x4 having an elderly linhof monorail and a newer ebony field camera. While I enjoy the way these force you to work I like the idea of 5x4 quality but in a more flexible package. Hence the interest in a press camera.

Thanks again to everyone for all the input.

Martin

steven_e007 · Aug 23, 2010

Yep, The speed Graphics are getting rather old and most need a bit of attention. Some need a LOT of attention!

My Shutter was a mile off... so I followed the servicing instructions found on various sites (you can download the original service manual). After this, it worked better - but was still a mile off!

I spent a while testing it until I had a fair idea what the speeds at different settings were - and worked from this. The original Speed Graphic has 24 different speeds(!!!) so you can usually find half a dozen which are near enough to something usable. A bit or work is needed - but after that you have a 5 X 4" camera that will take a fantastic range of lenses - including ones never intended to go on a 5 X 4 camera.

premo · Oct 6, 2010

I think the climate over there must be hard on F/P mechanisms. Of the graphic/graflex shutters I have seen, only 2 needed mechanical work.

Ian Grant · Oct 6, 2010

Very few Pacemaker Speed Graphics were sold in the UK. After WWII the British Government brought in tough austerity measures and imports were severely curtailed, there were almost no new imported cameras available until the restrictions were lifted in the early 1950's.

The Government encouraged British camera manufacture and the most noticeable new products the Reid cameras, and MPP's Micro Technical and Microcord/Microflex were all based on German camera designs from the leading manufacturers, Leica, Linhof & Rollei.

Somehow Graflex got around the import restrictions and supplied parts to MPP, the Micropress is a Speed Graphic in disguise, same shutter, bellows, front standard & boards, shutter release and focus rail, with a Wray rangefinder. All MPP made was the case, door and hinges, and the wooden body shell itself was actually made at the Celestion speaker factory which had the same owners. The whole deal is surrounded in secrecy even today.

By the time Pacemaker Graphics became available in the UK there were more sophisticated cameras available from both MPP & Linhof and Graflex couldn't compete in the UK market.

So most Pacemaker Speed Graphics in the UK are usually much more recent imports from the US.

Ian

Press cameras in the UK

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