Presoak with tube development

Donald Miller · Jan 27, 2006

I have noticed a problem since I switched from minimal agitation to continual agitation with tube development. I use screens to allow liquid to reach the AH layer of the film.

The continual agitation negatives on occasion show the screen on the negative. I assume that this is due to incomplete removal of the AH layer during the presoak.

I have never noticed this during minimal agitation developed negatives. I assume that this is due to the longer negative "wet" time.

I am going to become more aware of a proper presoak (minimum of five minutes) on continual agitation developed negatives.

Daniel Grenier · Jan 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
I..... show the screen on the negative......

Actually, Donald, I have noticed this very thing, although faint, on a 7x17 FP4 I just tube-processed which had a 5 minute soak. If it is the AH issue, then 5 minutes may not be long enough.

Silverpixels5 · Jan 27, 2006

Donald:

I'm not sure its the soak time thats doing it. I haven't used 8x10 in some time (thats the only size i have tubes for), but the last time I did and used minimal agitation with the screens I ended up with very apparent screen marks on half of the negative. Why it wasn't on the other half, I'm not really sure. Development time was about 30-40 minutes. It also doesn't happen every time...actually that was the only time that it happened to me.

Donald Miller · Jan 27, 2006

Daniel Grenier said:
Actually, Donald, I have noticed this very thing, although faint, on a 7x17 FP4 I just tube-processed which had a 5 minute soak. If it is the AH issue, then 5 minutes may not be long enough.

Daniel, I assume that it is the AH that is showing up as differences in density from the screen...I don't know what else it could be... I wonder if the Pyrocat would tan the base enough to prevent the removal if it is not completely removed in the presoak?

Silverpixels5 · Jan 27, 2006

Forgot to mention that the developer I used was Pyrocat HD

Donald Miller · Jan 27, 2006

Silverpixels5 said:
Donald:

I'm not sure its the soak time thats doing it. I haven't used 8x10 in some time (thats the only size i have tubes for), but the last time I did and used minimal agitation with the screens I ended up with very apparent screen marks on half of the negative. Why it wasn't on the other half, I'm not really sure. Development time was about 30-40 minutes. It also doesn't happen every time...actually that was the only time that it happened to me.

Ron,

Thanks, that is interesting...there must be a solution to this...I really don't like the idea of not using screens...

Silverpixels5 · Jan 27, 2006

I agree....its a catch-22. Use the screens and risk them showing up on the negative, or don't use the screens and risk scratching the negative.

Donald Miller said:
Ron,

Thanks, that is interesting...there must be a solution to this...I really don't like the idea of not using screens...

Daniel Grenier · Jan 27, 2006

Donald Miller said:
Daniel, I assume that it is the AH that is showing up as differences in density from the screen...I don't know what else it could be... I wonder if the Pyrocat would tan the base enough to prevent the removal if it is not completely removed in the presoak?

Don't know what else it could be either, Donald, but what I will try is a 10 minute soak next time I'm tube-processing and see what happens. BTW, this film was developed N+ "etreme minimal" 1:5-1-700 for 55 minutes with 1m initial and 2 10s agitation sessions with the remanining time standing untouched. I don't know, though that the dilution or time makes any difference with regards to this problem.

sanking · Jan 27, 2006

Or perhaps you fellows have just created a solution when there is no problem?

For as long as I can remember I haved used a pre-soak for all of my film, roll and sheet. However, I recently developed a few sheets of TMY in tubes with minimal agitation and forgot the soak. When I looked at the negatives carefully I could not find any problem at all with them, so feeling bold I developed another set without the pre-soak. Again, same result. Perfect negatives. No scratches and no marks.

My tubes are fairly tight so the back of the film does not receive much exchange of solutions during development, so when the film comes out of the tubes a large part of the anti-halation backing is still there. But no problem, I just remove the film from the tubes after the stop bath and place them in a tray for fixing. With TMY I also generally give the film a further soak after fixing in a dilute solution of sodium sulfite (one teapoon per liter of water) before final wash and this soak removes all of the anti-halation backing, along with the magenta stain.

If you are getting marks from the screens it should be possible to easily remove the marks with the sodium sulfite solution because they obviously result from incomplete removal of the anti-halation backing.

Sandy

Silverpixels5 said:
I agree....its a catch-22. Use the screens and risk them showing up on the negative, or don't use the screens and risk scratching the negative.

Silverpixels5 · Jan 27, 2006

Are both of you using staining developers, or no? Does this show up with non-staining developers? I may try a few with dilute rodinal and see if I get the same problem.

philldresser · Jan 27, 2006

Donald

How about moving the neg slightly halfway through soaking allowing the marked area to be cleared

Phill

Donald Miller · Jan 27, 2006

philldresser said:
Donald

How about moving the neg slightly halfway through soaking allowing the marked area to be cleared

Phill

Phil, I think that may certainly be a solution. I like to use screens for film protection with Efke.

Daniel Grenier · Jan 27, 2006

philldresser said:
Donald

How about moving the neg slightly halfway through soaking allowing the marked area to be cleared

Phill

Personnaly, I soak my negs in a tray - no screen. I then place the negs onto the screens and transfer them to the tubes.

Kilgallb · Jan 29, 2006

Removing Anti-Halation layer on film

I had a similar problem with Delta 100/D76 in a unicolour drum. The solution was to use double strength HYPO clear for about 2 - 5 minutes. Also. make sure you keep the wetting agent dilution as low as possible. I do not use a water bath before development.

You can rescue negatives that show the screen door effect, just soak them in water for about 30 seconds then leave in double strength Hypo clear for several minutes. It may take several tries to reverse the effect.

chiller · Jan 29, 2006

I use BTZS tubes, no screens -- no pre soak and no problems.

The only time I have had a problem is when I made a screen and tried using it. Obvious patterning on the film back.

Jorge gave a very good tip here or on the BTZS.org form -- have the tube full of liquid when removing the film and gently pull one corner of the film into the centre of the tube as you carefully pull the film out.

Any AH backing will clear very quickly.

I use Efke 100 and only very occassionally do I ever get an obvious strip down the middle of the film going into the fixer. This clears very quickly.

Buster6X6 · Jan 30, 2006

I had the same problem last year. I had some model airplane plastic rivets (1mm domed)that took me an hour to glue with epoxy all around inside Unicolor drum I am using for 8X10 about 1.5" vertically and 2" horizontally.
No screens to mess with and scratch the negative and allows solution to reach the back of the negative.

Greg

Presoak with tube development

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency