Preserving C41 developer

[cerber0s]

The s might be a very stupid question, you have my permission to laugh!

Can you preserve mixed C41 developer, bleach, and stabilizer by freezing them? At the moment I don’t shoot enough color film to make it financially justifiable to keep C41 developer at home.

 

[Tel]

You’re going to get a flurry of conflicting opinions on this question. I can tell you what I do—a process that I’ve been using since I started developing C-41 in 2012. Bear in mind that I shoot for pleasure; I don’t try to make money from it (although I’ve had over 50 photos hung in various galleries and sold five or six) and I don’t think I’m the next Robert Frank and that MoMA is going to come to my door begging for archival-quality negs. So, ultimately the choice is yours and I’d recommend experimenting until you find a method that suits you.

I just developed a roll of Portra in chemistry that I mixed on September 5. (I label and date my mixes.) This was the 11th roll from that batch of chemistry. On Sept. 5 as always I mixed up a batch of chemistry from powders (I use and like the Unicolor C-41 dry kits, largely because they seem to have a limitless shelf life in dry form) and when I had the wet chemistry ready—letting it rest a bit after mixing to make sure the powder was fully dissolved—I divided the liter (I always use the 1-liter kits) into two sets of 500mL bottles. The bottles are made of dark brown glass and have tight-fitting screw caps, standard chemical-storage stuff. I store them in my kitchen in a dark cabinet where it tends to be slightly cooler than room temp, so cooler in winter than summer. I tend to arbitrarily decide that a set of bottles is done after 8 rolls or so; this chemistry tends to fail suddenly and rapidly once I start using it, and I’m quite happy to get 15 or 16 rolls from a liter of chemicals. As the developer gets old, it gets darker and cloudier; this last batch showed a strong difference between used and new chemistry—the first batch, which I discarded in early December after the 7th roll, was significantly darker than the “new” batch which looked exactly as it did when I mixed it.

This method does what I want it to do and I’m going to keep on doing it. My amateur opinion is that exposure to air seems to have more impact on the chemicals than does temperature, although temperature could well be a factor. In the summer, I tend to get about three months out of a liter, but I also tend to shoot more film when the weather’s nice, so that may not be a temperature thing at all. So my recommendation would be to divide your chemistry and store it in a cool dark place. Others may have tried freezing it; I haven’t felt the need to do that.

 

[pentaxuser]

You’re going to get a flurry of conflicting opinions on this question. I can tell you what I do—a process that I’ve been using since I started developing C-41 in 2012. Bear in mind that I shoot for pleasure; I don’t try to make money from it (although I’ve had over 50 photos hung in various galleries and sold five or six) and I don’t think I’m the next Robert Frank and that MoMA is going to come to my door begging for archival-quality negs. So, ultimately the choice is yours and I’d recommend experimenting until you find a method that suits you.

I just developed a roll of Portra in chemistry that I mixed on September 5. (I label and date my mixes.) This was the 11th roll from that batch of chemistry. On Sept. 5 as always I mixed up a batch of chemistry from powders (I use and like the Unicolor As the developer gets old, it gets darker and cloudier; this last batch showed a strong difference between used and new chemistry—the first batch, which I discarded in early December after the 7th roll, was significantly darker than the “new” batch which looked exactly as it did when I mixed it.

Useful info, thanks It sounds as if you are saying that while the developer gets darker and cloudier it efficacy doesn't alter within the time period you specify?

Am I right in this

pentaxuser

 

[cerber0s]

Thank you for your replies.

I should have been a bit more specific. I’m asking, not because I want to develop many roll of film in one batch, but because at the moment my developer will have aged before I’m past my second roll. That’s a waste, and it’s expensive.

My thinking is that if I freeze the developer, there will be minimal oxidation as everything slows down. What I don’t know if being frozen will harm the chemicals in any way.

 

[koraks]

I'm just getting into it, so take this as my basic research on it

You may have to do a bit more research. Virtually everything you said was wrong.

My thinking is that if I freeze the developer, there will be minimal oxidation as everything slows down

Yes, this in principle will work and @BMbikerider has tried it; I'm sure he'll chime in and offer his experience.

In my experience, freezing isn't necessary, since storing the working strength developer in entirely full, glass bottles with a properly fitting cap is sufficient to effectively halt oxidation and preserve the developer for 1+ years. So this is similar to what @Tel describes, although I prefer to use clear glass as it makes it easier to see the color of the contents of the bottles. They need to be stored in the dark, though, since the developing agent will decompose (slowly) under influence of UV. The bottles do not need to be refrigerated. I personally usually use my developer one shot, contrary to @Tel. YMMV.

Fixer likes to be stored in isolation from oxygen, like developer, but is a whole lot more robust. In general, with Fuji C41 fixer, I don't bother decanting it into glass bottles. It survives fine in the partially full plastic jug it comes in from the factory before it's all used up, in my experience.

Bleach is easy; it's basically indestructible. I'm pretty sure you could put it in an open tray in a corner of your patio/balcony/deck, come back after a year and it would still work just fine after filtering the dead squirrels and butterflies out of it. I personally prefer to not go that far and just keep it in the factory packaging, like the fixer, until it's used up - which takes ages.

 

[blee1996]

I use 500ml or 1L aluminum foil lined wine bags, and squeeze out all the air. This way, my C41/E6/ECN-2 working solution developers, fixers and bleach can last at least one year with intermittent use in between.

 

[Fatih Ayoglu]

I have mixed fuji Hunt 5l kit and have frozen developer in 500ml plastic bottles. When I have 10 to 12 rolls, I thaw 2 bottles, makeup 1litre chemistry and use them. For the time being I have not seen any color issue and the way I test this is if the same film (like Portra 400) prints on the same RA4 paper with roughly the same filter settings without any color issue, till now I am successful. But again, I am not a Pro.

 

[andyvan]

You may have to do a bit more research. Virtually everything you said was wrong.



Yes, this in principle will work and @BMbikerider has tried it; I'm sure he'll chime in and offer his experience.

In my experience, freezing isn't necessary, since storing the working strength developer in entirely full, glass bottles with a properly fitting cap is sufficient to effectively halt oxidation and preserve the developer for 1+ years. So this is similar to what @Tel describes, although I prefer to use clear glass as it makes it easier to see the color of the contents of the bottles. They need to be stored in the dark, though, since the developing agent will decompose (slowly) under influence of UV. The bottles do not need to be refrigerated. I personally usually use my developer one shot, contrary to @Tel. YMMV.

Fixer likes to be stored in isolation from oxygen, like developer, but is a whole lot more robust. In general, with Fuji C41 fixer, I don't bother decanting it into glass bottles. It survives fine in the partially full plastic jug it comes in from the factory before it's all used up, in my experience.

Bleach is easy; it's basically indestructible. I'm pretty sure you could put it in an open tray in a corner of your patio/balcony/deck, come back after a year and it would still work just fine after filtering the dead squirrels and butterflies out of it. I personally prefer to not go that far and just keep it in the factory packaging, like the fixer, until it's used up - which takes ages.

sorry, deleted it, as I am obviously in the wrong forum, if you don't help people understand their mistakes.

 

[drp]

I use 500ml or 1L aluminum foil lined wine bags, and squeeze out all the air. This way, my C41/E6/ECN-2 working solution developers, fixers and bleach can last at least one year with intermittent use in between.

Hi blee1996,

What specific brand have you found works for you?

Thanks!

 

[Tel]

Useful info, thanks It sounds as if you are saying that while the developer gets darker and cloudier it efficacy doesn't alter within the time period you specify?

Am I right in this

pentaxuser

Well, sort of but not exactly. I find that properly stored the developer can deliver acceptable results (for me) up to 3 or even 4 months after being mixed. There are people here who are much more particular than I am and will argue that it’s only good for a few days. The danger is that the dev doesn’t give a clear warning that it’s about to fail, though I have consistently gotten good results for months after mixing it. To be cautious, I do a clip test before developing anything I consider important, like LF sheet film, if the dev is more than 2 months old. I have, in the past when I was testing longevity for my own information, had dev fall of the cliff and fail completely, but only after exceeding the 15-16 roll target. I did make it to 20 rolls once and others have told me they went further than that. The darkness of the dev is a rough indicator of its deterioration I think, though I haven’t done any rigorous testing to find out of this is true or useful.

To the OP’s point, though, I tend to do single rolls rather than batches, except when I’m doing sheet film where I’ll do four 4x5s or two 5x7s in one batch. Partly, I’m saying that I think the expiration period specified by the manufacturers of C-41 chemistry may be (very) conservative, kind of like the expiration dates on batches of fresh film. I’ve never tried freezing my dev and blix after it’s mixed, but I find that simply putting it in tightly sealed bottles and storing it in a dark cool place can extend its useful life for months. Freezing might well improve on this.

 

[blee1996]

Hi blee1996,

What specific brand have you found works for you?

Thanks!

The brands keep on changing on eBay and Amazon, and similar items appear and disappear. I looked up the most recent Amazon order of 50 1L bags just a few months back, and that item no longer exists. This is a similar one that is available now on Amazon.

 

[Romanko]

I’m asking, not because I want to develop many roll of film in one batch, but because at the moment my developer will have aged before I’m past my second roll. That’s a waste, and it’s expensive.

If you don't shoot a lot of color then lab processing might be a cheaper and more convenient option for you.

Working solutions could be preserved by filling the bottles with a gas that displaces air and does not react with the chemicals in the solution. Tetenal Protectan is/was a commercial product of this kind. Propane/butane gas is sold in cans in supermarkets to refill kitchen gas ligthers and similar devices. It does the job and I occasionally use it. I don't have any data regarding its efficiency and how much it extends the life of the solution, though.

Apparently, fresh solutions have longer shelf life than the ones that were used.

 

[drp]

The brands keep on changing on eBay and Amazon, and similar items appear and disappear. I looked up the most recent Amazon order of 50 1L bags just a few months back, and that item no longer exists. This is a similar one that is available now on Amazon.

View attachment 387101

Great! Thanks! I'll look into these!

 

[mshchem]

I have found over decades of processing color film. Key is eliminating oxygen. Use water that is pure and has been setting a couple days, (don't use water fresh from the tap). I remember back in my chemistry lab days we would sparge solvents with He to get rid of dissolved air (I didn't have to pay for the helium )

I have not tried freezing, absolutely full PET or glass bottles work for storing unused stock solutions of Kodak, Fuji and the former Tetenal solutions, have worked for me. The concentrates keep well unopened. C-41 bleach keeps well, blix not so much.

Sounds like some folks have had great success freezing solutions.

 

[mshchem]

The brands keep on changing on eBay and Amazon, and similar items appear and disappear. I looked up the most recent Amazon order of 50 1L bags just a few months back, and that item no longer exists. This is a similar one that is available now on Amazon.

View attachment 387101

Amazon will sell just about anything. These certainly aren't Aluminum, maybe Chinese Mylar knockoffs. Looks like designed for smuggling booze into a football game

 

[Randy Stewart]

I have mixed fuji Hunt 5l kit and have frozen developer in 500ml plastic bottles. When I have 10 to 12 rolls, I thaw 2 bottles, makeup 1litre chemistry and use them. For the time being I have not seen any color issue and the way I test this is if the same film (like Portra 400) prints on the same RA4 paper with roughly the same filter settings without any color issue, till now I am successful. But again, I am not a Pro.

My practice has been similar for about 40 years. I store working dilution C-41 chemicals, frozen in 250ml plastic bottles. (I use a Unicolor rotatory processing system which requires much less chemistry per roll, which I use as a "2 roll one shot" and then discard for developer, reuse once more for bleach and fixer.) The only difference is that I compound my own C-41 chemistry from bulk chemicals, so in effect, I am always using fresh chemistry.

 

[MattKing]

sorry, deleted it, as I am obviously in the wrong forum, if you don't help people understand their mistakes.

I believe you misunderstood - the reference to what you posted being "wrong" was a reference to what your research indicated - your sources were incorrect - not to your understanding of them.
Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation out there.
The other posts in the thread are an attempt to set out what is right.
And by the way, almost all the Moderators here are active participants as well.
If you see a post from us that doesn't indicate that the contents of the post relate to our moderation duties, you can take it as just part of the site discussion, coming from one of the more active members.
And to reveal a secret that very few have noticed here - - us moderators are human, as regular contributors to the discussion we sometimes take positions that are not agreed to by others, and we even sometimes get things wrong!

 

[mshchem]

I'm never wrong! My wife can testify to this.

Koraks is passionate about C-41

 

[MattKing]

I'm never wrong! My wife can testify to this.

Koraks is passionate about C-41

And knowledgeable and helpful.
But I'm prepared to tell him that the way he said what he said was too brief

 

[mshchem]

And knowledgeable and helpful.
But I'm prepared to tell him that the way he said what he said was too brief

 

[cerber0s]

Thank you all, you’ve given me something to think about!

 

[koraks]

But I'm prepared to tell him that the way he said what he said was too brief

sorry, deleted it, as I am obviously in the wrong forum, if you don't help people understand their mistakes.

I'm sorry you feel that way. In fact, initially I had typed out a longer version that attempted to rectify the many errors in your post. I deleted that version in favor of the succinct comment that was left. @MattKing can attest to this as he can see the history of my post. What's not shown in that history is yet a more detailed version that I had typed before, but never committed to the database. The reason I stuck with the brief version is because it seemed pedantic to point out each and every flaw in your reasoning (and there were many).
However, since you ask, I'll repost the comments I had in the previous version of my post, but that I later replaced:

* Mixing from powder or concentrated solutions does not imply one shot or repeated use.
* Stabilizer has nothing to do with replenishment.
* One-shot use is literally that: use once and discard.
* The 'staining dye' in C41 developer works very simply put as follows: a colored dye is formed as the reaction product of an oxidation product of the developer combined with a color coupler that's present in the film. This is contrary to how B&W staining developers work, where the colored dye is the oxidation product of the developer alone. The mechanism is sort of similar.
* The dye formation process as described above has nothing to do with freshness of the developer as such; it's an inherent, by-design property of how the material works.
* Your comments about environmental load of aged developer do not have any basis in fact.

This list was non-exhaustive; there were more problems with your post.

the reference to what you posted being "wrong" was a reference to what your research indicated - your sources were incorrect - not to your understanding of them.

I suspect it was both, with a dash of unfortunate/ambiguous formulation and a good dose of confusing interpunction thrown in.

Mind you, there's no shame in being wrong. I'm OK with people offering advice even if they don't know exactly what they're talking about; it's one way to learn. But I do think it's the duty of others to point it out if information is (grossly) incorrect or incomplete.

 

[BMbikerider]

You may have to do a bit more research. Virtually everything you said was wrong.



Yes, this in principle will work and @BMbikerider has tried it; I'm sure he'll chime in and offer his experience.

Yes I will add my two pennorth although I have a feeling this has been said before.

In my experience, freezing isn't necessary, since storing the working strength developer in entirely full, glass bottles with a properly fitting cap is sufficient to effectively halt oxidation and preserve the developer for 1+ years. So this is similar to what @Tel describes, although I prefer to use clear glass as it makes it easier to see the color of the contents of the bottles. They need to be stored in the dark, though, since the developing agent will decompose (slowly) under influence of UV. The bottles do not need to be refrigerated. I personally usually use my developer one shot, contrary to @Tel. YMMV. but

Like your good self I agree about full bottles being the best and I have gone one step further and frozen them (Call it a belt and braces approach) In the past I have also pre-mixed quantities of developer and decanted them into 150cc bottles and because the bottles will vary in capacity there is always a space at the top which will be left uncovered.
With the lids off I raised the temperatures of the liquid to between 40-45c then screw the lids on. As they cool the liquid quantities will reduce in volume so creating a semi vacuum - hence less oxygen. They were stored in a cool dark place. That does work, but have never used the developer over an extended storage time. You will know if the vacuum has worked when you unscrew the lids, there will be a short, sharp intake of air. This does raise another problem because inducing a vacuum does mean releasing the cap can be a bit of a struggle - Just like opening a new jar of jam that is vacuum sealed.

Fixer likes to be stored in isolation from oxygen, like developer, but is a whole lot more robust. In general, with Fuji C41 fixer, I don't bother decanting it into glass bottles. It survives fine in the partially full plastic jug it comes in from the factory before it's all used up, in my experience.

Bleach is easy; it's basically indestructible. I'm pretty sure you could put it in an open tray in a corner of your patio/balcony/deck, come back after a year and it would still work just fine after filtering the dead squirrels and butterflies out of it. I personally prefer to not go that far and just keep it in the factory packaging, like the fixer, until it's used up - which takes ages.

I have had problems with bleach! A bottle of RA4 Champion bleach was screwed shut after pouring out enough to dilute and fill my 12x16 NOVA process and 1 or 2 x 1/2 litre bottles. When I went to mix some more I found the concentrate had separated out into a dark creamy sludge and a dark brown liquid. A second bottle I bought at the same time but had not opened was still the same when bought.
I mixed what I needed for replenishment then diluted the remainder to make up the full quantity of 2.5 litres was the same as a new bottle. I deduced that the whole bottle was meant to be mixed at once.

In the past (several years ago) I also tried the freezing technique with the developers used in E6 processing and that most definitely didn't work! Some of the contents froze but on top of the frozen contents was a layer of an oily compound that would not re- mix with the remainder. Lesson learned

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for your reply to my post Tel

pentaxuser

 

[Tel]

Thanks for your reply to my post Tel

pentaxuser

You’re most welcome. I’m just thinking that the reason I came back to APUG/Photrio was the frank exchange of differing ideas and experiences. Sometimes it gets a bit sharp but I think most of us are here to share and learn. And thanks to the moderators who know when to step into the fray and calm things down.