Preferred B&W film for scanning

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blumesan

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Honest, I did search the forum but didn't come up with much.

My current project is to shoot B&W films, speed range 100 - 400 ISO and scan with my Nikon 4000. I will be doing my own development. Printing to be done by lab; print size up to 14 in. I am looking for recommendations on the best films for this purpose. Suggestions on how to modify developer, time and temp which are pertinent to improving scanning qualities, also much appreciated.
 

Paul-H

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I personally I have always found I get better scanned results from Ilford FP4 with standard ISO and development times.

It is a very personal thing though and everyone will have a different answer.

I did find Ilford XP2 to be a very difficult film to scan as it has a very flat low contrast appearance when correctly processed and the scanner I had access to didn't like it very much.

Kodak T-Max films are also quite good as is Ilford HP5, FP4 is just my all time favourite film and has been for decades, suitable for wet and digital processing.

Paul
 
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blumesan

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I personally I have always found I get better scanned results from Ilford FP4 with standard ISO and development times.

It is a very personal thing though and everyone will have a different answer.

I did find Ilford XP2 to be a very difficult film to scan as it has a very flat low contrast appearance when correctly processed and the scanner I had access to didn't like it very much.

Kodak T-Max films are also quite good as is Ilford HP5, FP4 is just my all time favourite film and has been for decades, suitable for wet and digital processing.

Paul

Paul,
Thanks for your reply. I am sure that preferences are personal and subjective. I am grateful for all opinions. :smile:
 

L Gebhardt

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I find most black and white films scan well. I develop for optical printing and get good scans using those times. I use XTOL and sometimes Pyrocat HD and find no issues with either developer for scanning. I use FP4+, TMY and Acros as my main films, and find they are all good for both scanning and optical printing. One note, Acros is very smooth on the emulsion side, so with glass negative carriers I get newton rings a lot. Depending on your scanner holder that may be an issue for you.

I've seen some recommendations that you cut development time to make a thinner negative for scanning. I think this is advice is entirely wrong. The thinner negative uses much less of the scanners available tonal range, so you have more of a chance for banding (with anything but a drum scanner where the log amps can be adjusted). If you over develop (per optical printing) you increase the grain in the negative, which will show up in the scan (for good or bad).
 

lenny

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I can answer this. I am a scanning professional and have done tests on all the modern films and about 20-30 different developers. I did these tests on an Aztek Premier drum scanner, one of the top drum scanners, with exceptional resolution. I use a Jobo and primarily large format film. There are people that get differing results but there are some clear winners. First, the important thing is to define what makes a good negative to scan with. This is a negative that is smooth, or with as little grain as possible. This means that the grains are as densely packed together as the film will allow, as close to the original manufacture for the size of grains, or to be more specific, grain clumps.

There are many developers that make the grain smaller than need be. One of the infuriating, and Orwellian" things is that "fine-grained" developers are the exact opposite of fine grained. They contains solvents which dissolve the edges of the grain clumps a bit and as a result the grains are indeed smaller, but the are farther apart, making your print more grainy. Developers that are "over-active" can also damage the grain.

The three commercially available developers that seem to do the least bit of damage to grains are Xtol, PyroCat HD and the many forms of Pyrogallol, PMK, Rollo Pyro, etc. They are a major improvement over developers like D-76 and Rodinal. There are some other good ones, Perceptol, for instance, but they have other issues when dealing with large format film, like exhaustion. It isn't impossible to make a good developer as long as you keep the activation down, as well as go very easy on the solvent. However, PyroCat HD in Glycol is terrific, and so is Xtol.

Choosing a film is the obvious next part of this. T-Grained films have smaller grains, and are therefore better for scanning. I used to think that the newer films weren't as sensitive, but I was incorrect. I set up a test to specifically address this. All of the top films are excellent. My latest tests included Ilford's Delta 100, TMax, TMY2 and Efke 25. They were all good. I had previously thought that the modern films weren't as sensitive, but I was wrong. When I got the development spot on, they all excelled. Other than TMY2, the 400 speed films were not in the same class. Cheap, junky film (no names here) did not yield good results. I have settled on Delta because I like Ilford.

The one obvious mistake you can make is to over-develop the film, in any developer. As you blow out the highlights, the size of grain increases, especially with Xtol. I develop to a higher density than a silver negative, about 1.5 at the top.

The last thing I would say is that if you are going to only 14 inches in the print, you have a lot more choices than if you go to 20 or 30. If you print very contrasty, ignore these recommendations and do whatever you want - it doesn't matter. However, these are the basics, the results of a very carefully done series of tests.
 
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blumesan

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lenny

Thanks for your detailed reply. I note that you are using primarily LF film and scanning on a high quality drum scanner. Would you say that these recommendations apply equally (or pretty much) to 35mm film, scanned in a good film scanner (Nikon LS4000)?
 

lenny

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lenny

Thanks for your detailed reply. I note that you are using primarily LF film and scanning on a high quality drum scanner. Would you say that these recommendations apply equally (or pretty much) to 35mm film, scanned in a good film scanner (Nikon LS4000)?

Yes, I think they are general guidelines. However, I will add that I think the biggest obstacle to quality in your workflow is the 35mm film size. There are clear reasons to use a 35mm camera. For all I know, you're a combat photographer. That would be a good reason, and there are others, street shooting in cities, etc.

However, if you are not doing something that requires 35mm, then stop using one, and move up to a larger format. A 6x7 format 2.25 x 2.75 has 6.1875 square inches of film That's more than 4 times the area of 35mm. It's a huge difference. There are many excellent cameras available in the used market that would give you to medium format for a very reasonable amount. Unless you have a very good reason for shooting 35mm I would encourage you to move a bit larger.

Lenny
 

hsandler

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After using Delta100 in D76 a lot, I tried Fuji Acros, which seems to give me even finer apparent grain, and more shadow detail right off a linear scan. Then I switched developer to XTOL 1:1, which I find a little bit better because I get all the benefits at full box speed of ISO 100. I am scanning with a flatbed though, and I think apparent grain has a lot to do with the combination of film and scanner type.

While I certainly agree with Lenny's comment about the benefits of moving format up from 35mm, one caution is that going from a Nikon LS 4000 with 35mm to 6x7 with a flatbed, you won't see much if any resolution improvement, only less grain. You would need access to a dedicated medium format film scanner $$$ or drum scanner $$$$ to realize all the benefits.
 

OzJohn

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There are many developers that make the grain smaller than need be. One of the infuriating, and Orwellian" things is that "fine-grained" developers are the exact opposite of fine grained. They contains solvents which dissolve the edges of the grain clumps a bit and as a result the grains are indeed smaller, but the are farther apart, making your print more grainy. Developers that are "over-active" can also damage the grain.

Lenny, some excellent advice in both your posts. Because it's such a long post I only selected the above few sentences to quote but every word should be of use to anyone who scans negs, particularly black & white. You correctly highlight the infuriating nature of fine grain developers. I've only seen it properly explained in a few books over many years and rarely as succinctly as you have managed. Your advice has a "new" importance in scanning which was largely unheard of when any of the books I refer to were written although I'm sure someone can quote a more recent text that covers it. OzJohn
 
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blumesan

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Many thanks to all who have given their time to answer my questions.
 
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