Pre-soak paper.

Greg Dickson · Dec 19, 2018

I am printing with liquid emulsion using various paper types.
I was thinking of pre-soaking the paper before adding the developer.

I realise that the wet paper will make it more difficult for the developer to get to the emulsion through the back of the paper however as some of this paper is very absorbent it is likely to very hard to remove all the fixer after processing.
If I pre-soak the paper then less chemical will be absorbed by the paper itself and so it should be more fully removed later.
The initial agitation should allow the developer to get to the emulsion on the surface.
I am curious to hear opinions.
Thanks

removed account4 · Dec 19, 2018

hi greg
i've done stuff like that.
expose > water>dev>water>fix
came out OK
have fun !
john

++ added later++
this scheme didn't change how i fixed or washed my prints

Greg Dickson · Dec 19, 2018

Cool thanks John.

absalom1951 · Dec 19, 2018

Hello Greg
I experimented presoaking paper before using a lith developer --it did make a big difference on some papers.

ericdan · Dec 19, 2018

What kind of paper was that?

absalom1951 · Dec 19, 2018

One paper was Ilford FB glossy MC .If I remember correctly I presoaked for 2 minutes and developed using Arista Powder A&B. I'd have to look at my notes , I'm going out to my darkroom later , I'll try to locate my notes then. I had better luck with Agfa papers.

Greg Dickson · Dec 19, 2018

absalom1951 said:
Hello Greg
I experimented presoaking paper before using a lith developer --it did make a big difference on some papers.

I am really curious as to how it was different.
I can't get to my darkroom to try for a couple of days. But I think it will definitely help the cleaning process after.

nmp · Dec 19, 2018

Greg Dickson said:
I am printing with liquid emulsion using various paper types.
I was thinking of pre-soaking the paper before adding the developer.

I realise that the wet paper will make it more difficult for the developer to get to the emulsion through the back of the paper however as some of this paper is very absorbent it is likely to very hard to remove all the fixer after processing.
If I pre-soak the paper then less chemical will be absorbed by the paper itself and so it should be more fully removed later.
The initial agitation should allow the developer to get to the emulsion on the surface.
I am curious to hear opinions.
Thanks

Can you use some kind of coating in the back to make it non-absorbent?

NedL · Dec 19, 2018

I'm not sure how much it will help in removing fixer from the paper. My first inclination would be a few minutes in weak sodium sulfite and then a long wash. I'm guessing the reason you are asking this is that the papers do not stand up to a long wash, or that the emulsion starts to come off in a long wash? In any case, with regular photographic paper, I often pre-soak before developing, especially for paper negatives. It helps with even development and prevents streaks. Interestingly, streaks can still happen unless the paper is put smoothly into the water!

kevs · Dec 19, 2018

NedL said:
<snip>
In any case, with regular photographic paper, I often pre-soak before developing, especially for paper negatives. It helps with even development and prevents streaks. Interestingly, streaks can still happen unless the paper is put smoothly into the water!

Though it won't cause any problems, I don't see any reason to pre-soak ordinary B&W photographic papers before developing, unless you are processing in a drum or similar print processor intended for colour prints. Adequate time and agitation in the dev dish should ensure the paper is completely immersed and evenly developed.

NedL · Dec 19, 2018

Well, paper negatives can be prone to streaks and development marks that happen at the moment the paper touches the developer. A pre-soak can help alleviate this problem.
I agree it is more of a problem with drum processing, but even with tray processing any splatter or uneven motion as the paper is put into the developer can leave marks or streaks.
Paper negatives are not always developed "to completion" like a print.

absalom1951 · Dec 19, 2018

Greg,
I'm not a chemist nor a professional photographer .and not a very good typer- 1 finger.

The second was printed on Ilford FB glossy MC
1.presoak 2 1/2 minutes
2. developed for 15 minutes- arista powder a&b -5-5-20
3.wash 60 seconds
4.60 seconds in tf4 fixe
5.wash

first print on Ilford Pearl Coldtone RC
1. presoak 1 1/2 minutes
2. developed for 9 minutes- diluted same as above
3. wash 30 second
4.30 seconds in tf4 fixer
5.wash

These scans are close to what the print appears.Not to good at scanning.
I played around with the scanner setting for awhile, this is the best I can do.

Doremus Scudder · Dec 19, 2018

You're not going to keep the fixer from soaking into the paper base by pre-soaking. The best you can do there (especially if longer wash times cause damage to your prints) is to try to reduce fixing time to an absolute minimum by using strong (i.e., "film-strength) fixer and short fixing times a là Ilford. Keeping the fixing time to 60 seconds should keep too much fixer from soaking into the paper. Still, you'll need to wash long enough to get rid of what fix does soak in as well as the developer and stop. After about 90 seconds or so with regular fiber-base paper, the paper base is completely saturated; it only takes that long for the ion exchange. If you're using thicker paper, the time will be longer. The emulsion gets fixer from the top surface and, being relatively thinner than the paper base, needs just a few seconds for fixer to saturate it and get to work.

As for pre-soaking paper: it will delay and even out the initiation of development, which can be helpful in some applications (e.g., paper negatives). For general work where the paper is developed completely anyway, it will just extend development times.

Best,

Doremus

MattKing · Dec 19, 2018

If you are processing multiple prints at the same time, a quick presoak will stop them from sticking together in the developer tray.

Greg Dickson · Dec 19, 2018

Thanks heaps everyone these are all brilliant points to consider.
Just what I needed.
Thanks again Greg

tezzasmall · Dec 20, 2018

In all my years of developing film and paper, I have never read about any need to pre-soak papers, including ones coated with liquid emulsion, so I will stick with my tried and trusted route.

As for papers to coat with LE, I would try just washing each new set of them fully before you start on a coating of a new sheet. I found that even some well known branded papers started to fall apart in a wash quite quickly, so never even got as far as being coated with LE. All the ones I have tried have been thick watercolour papers and some of them don't come cheap either!

But good luck with your experiments.

Terry S

Greg Dickson · Dec 20, 2018

Thanks Terry
Good idea about the paper test.
I was thinking that adding chemicals to wet paper would do two things.
Reduced the developer use.
Reduced the necessary washing time.
And a couple of others.
Being very thick paper and as the fixer and stop will be dealing with wet paper they will not permeate as easily or deeply as the developer will. Being that it is going onto dry paper. So if the paper is already wet they all get absorbed equally. Knowledge from a life of construction experience.
My plan now is to not handle the paper at all through the whole process.

Thanks again everyone your ideas have been really helpful.

Greg Dickson · Dec 21, 2018

Ok after half a day of swapping between the two. Using hand made paper and normal sketch paper and both methods.
I couldn't tell much difference.
I can't really tell the residual chemical levels though.
Not too keen on licking the papers for a taste test.

Doremus Scudder · Dec 21, 2018

Greg Dickson said:
Ok after half a day of swapping between the two. Using hand made paper and normal sketch paper and both methods.
I couldn't tell much difference.
I can't really tell the residual chemical levels though.
Not too keen on licking the papers for a taste test.

Kodak HT-2 test for residual hypo and Kodak ST-1 test for residual silver to test for adequate washing and complete fixation respectively. Formulas are easily found with a Google search. Chemicals and kits are available from Photographers' Formulary among others.

Best,

Doremus

Greg Dickson · Dec 21, 2018

Thanks Doremus
I will definitely follow that up.

Pre-soak paper.

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