Praktica LTL3 frame spacing problems - camera problem or user error?

brainmonster · Jul 10, 2020

Sorry for the long post but here we go -

I just developed a roll from an LTL3 that I got from Ebay. The frame spacing is too wide and gets larger as it goes on with every frame.

I've read other posts saying that this is a problem with the film sprocket not moving the film properly, and the take up spool only moving the film.

AgX · Jul 10, 2020

Basically non motorized 35mm cameras have a geared connection between transport lever and sprocket wheel. Thus a fixed amount of advance

Yes, the sprocket wheel not advancing and the take-up spool doing the actual transport instead would lead to widening gaps, as the rotation of a take-up spool is set for maximum advance, as needed at the start of transport. With the length of taken up film rising and the effective diameter of the spool rising too the resulting advance gets too big. What in regular operation would be controlled though by the sprocket wheel, with the take up spool being over-advance circumvented literally by friction-coupling slipping. Or if the sprocket wheel proper got loose off its axle.

However, the above would only take place if the take-up spool is not driven by the sprocket wheel directly. As the latter seemingly is idle, the take-up spool would be idle too. Likely the take-up spool is driven from one step earlier in the respecticve gear train.

Anyway, such fault should be diagnosed by just looking and maybe feeling at the operations with the back open.

foc · Jul 10, 2020

brainmonster said:
I've read other posts saying that this is a problem with the film sprocket not moving the film properly, and the take up spool only moving the film.

I would imagine that if this was the problem then the spacing between frames would not be as even as in the photo. The takeup spool would fill with film and so the spacing would be bigger. (just a thought)

brainmonster · Jul 10, 2020

AgX said:
Basically non motorized 35mm cameras have a geared connection between transport lever and sprocket wheel. Thus a fixed amount of advance

Yes, the sprocket wheel not advancing and the take-up spool doing the actual transport instead would lead to widening gaps, as the rotation of a take-up spool is set for maximum advance, as needed at the start of transport. With the length of taken up film rising and the effective diameter of the spool rising too the resulting advance gets too big. What in regular operation would be controlled though by the sprocket wheel, with the take up spool being over-advance circumvented literally by friction-coupling slipping. Or if the sprocket wheel proper got loose off its axle.

However, the above would only take place if the take-up spool is not driven by the sprocket wheel directly. As the latter seemingly is idle, the take-up spool would be idle too. Likely the take-up spool is driven from one step earlier in the respecticve gear train.

Anyway, such fault should be diagnosed by just looking and maybe feeling at the operations with the back open.

I checked and the take up spool does not stop with resistance from my finger, unlike the sprocket wheel. Instead it has steel rods mounted on springs that move up and down which seem to depress with my finger. Perhaps that controls the width of the take up spool. I'm not sure how the film is supposed to enter onto the take up spool from its position on the green line. When I loaded it the first time I threaded it between the rods so that the take up spool could hold the film, but I think I'm not supposed to do this.

Any ideas? I suppose the only way to find out is to load the film again according to the manual and see if the problem happens again.

brainmonster · Jul 10, 2020

foc said:
I would imagine that if this was the problem then the spacing between frames would not be as even as in the photo. The takeup spool would fill with film and so the spacing would be bigger. (just a thought)

The film spacing does get bigger and bigger, slightly, over the course of the film, my picture shows a small part, but it does grow larger along the course of the roll.

Donald Qualls · Jul 10, 2020

I'd suggest starting with loading the film exactly as the manual recommends. If there are actual diameter feelers present, having them disengaged would prevent the camera from compensating as the film builds up on the spool, as well as causing excessive spacing from the start because the gears are built to ensure there's more available takeup than a full frame, even when freshly loaded.

Most cameras handle this by using the sprocket wheel to count eight holes and then lock the advance, but Praktica was always a law unto itself. Perhaps they built a turns-counting advance for a film designed for length-counting.

AgX · Jul 10, 2020

brainmonster said:
I checked and the take up spool does not stop with resistance from my finger, unlike the sprocket wheel.... Instead it has steel rods mounted on springs that move up and down which seem to depress with my finger. Perhaps that controls the width of the take up spool. I'm not sure how the film is supposed to enter onto the take up spool from its position on the green line. When I loaded it the first time I threaded it between the rods so that the take up spool could hold the film, but I think I'm not supposed to do this.

-) the take-up spool should stop turning at winding, if you presss enough on it flanges. As said it only is linked to the gear mechanism by friction-coupling.

However, IF that friction-coupling would set fixed, you would get the same effect. But I never heard of sich coupling getting fixed. Also in this case the take up spool would tear the film over the sprockets, with respective signs.
But as you say you could stop the sprocket wheel, the culprit is to find on that side.

-) those steel rods ar rather yokes to catch the film leader. They are part of Pentacon's PL quick-loading feature. Basically it functions as other quick-loading features. Have a look at your manual or any Praktica PL manual.

brainmonster · Jul 10, 2020

AgX said:
-) the take-up spool should stop turning at winding, if you presss enough on it flanges. As said it only is linked to the gear mechanism by friction-coupling.

However, IF that friction-coupling would set fixed, you would get the same effect. But I never heard of sich coupling getting fixed. Also in this case the take up spool would tear the film over the sprockets, with respective signs.
But as you say you could stop the sprocket wheel, the culprit is to find on that side.

-) those steel rods ar rather yokes to catch the film leader. They are part of Pentacon's PL quick-loading feature. Basically it functions as other quick-loading features. Have a look at your manual or any Praktica PL manual.

The take up spool does stop moving, if I press it with my finger, but it also stops the winder lever from moving further and the cocking the shutter. Stopping the take up spool also stops the sprocket wheel.

While loading the film, I was careful to follow the direct instructions, and noticed that the film sprocket wheel did not actually seem to move the film using only the bottom half of the film sprocket wheel, it did a little bit, but after the film was grabbed by the take up spool rods, it moved along with the film sprockets.

I also noticed that one of the film sprocket wheel teeth was missing from the lower part.

I'm thinking I may run into the same problem if the sprockets aren't moving the film along as they (seemingly) are supposed to, so if this roll turns out badly I guess I why try to return it to the ebay seller (who claimed they tested it, so it's strange).

AgX · Jul 10, 2020

brainmonster said:
The take up spool does stop moving, if I press it with my finger, but it also stops the winder lever from moving further and the cocking the shutter. Stopping the take up spool also stops the sprocket wheel.

This is puzzlung. I am out of the game. Maybe one of the Praktica experts here got more insight on that friction-coupling than me.

David Lyga · Jul 10, 2020

I find it next to impossible to believe that this Praktica does not 'count' precisely eight sprocket holes and stop then and there. This, essentially should have NOTHING to do with the increasing width of the take up spool. That take up spool is purposely able to be held back due to the increased pull from its increasing width. NO, Film advance precision brought about by the sprocket pins and ONLY the sprocket pins is what accurate film advance is all about.

Thus, the sprocket wheel is not heeding its intended, precise turn. The internal gears guiding this precise turn are at fault here. - David Lyga

brainmonster · Jul 10, 2020

David Lyga said:
I find it next to impossible to believe that this Praktica does not 'count' precisely eight sprocket holes and stop then and there. This, essentially should have NOTHING to do with the increasing width of the take up spool. That take up spool is purposely able to be held back due to the increased pull from its increasing width. NO, Film advance precision brought about by the sprocket pins and ONLY the sprocket pins is what accurate film advance is all about.

Thus, the sprocket wheel is not heeding its intended, precise turn. The internal gears guiding this precise turn are at fault here. - David Lyga

Sounds like there is something broken in those gears then. I put another roll through it and only got about 22 exposures, so basically it still has the problem. So something is wrong with it - I'll try to send it back to the ebay seller.

AgX · Jul 11, 2020

As I already said, stopping by hand the take-up spool should not stop a winding action. This cannot be explained by a broken gear, but only by a frozen take-up spool. But this again would result in no time either pulling a loaded film over the sprockets or more likely tearing the perforations.

As said too: I'm puzzled.

chuck3565 · Jul 13, 2020

brainmonster said:
Sorry for the long post but here we go -

I just developed a roll from an LTL3 that I got from Ebay. The frame spacing is too wide and gets larger as it goes on with every frame.

I've read other posts saying that this is a problem with the film sprocket not moving the film properly, and the take up spool only moving the film.

View attachment 250053

View attachment 250052
View attachment 250055

The problem is the lower half of the film sprocket is cracked or a piece of plastic is cracked off in the lower part of the sprocket. This issue is caused by forcing the film advance lever at the end of the film roll. This is a very common problem with L series Prakticas. There is a kludge for the latter condition but I'd just send it back to the seller.

AgX · Jul 13, 2020

-) can one see this in the photos above?
-) I myself have not yet come across this fault
-) it still does not explain what the OP experienced in handling the transport mechanism

chuck3565 · Jul 13, 2020

AgX said:
-) can one see this in the photos above? -) I myself have not yet come across this fault
-) it still does not explain what the OP experienced in handling the transport mechanism

I bet if he puts his finger on the take-up sprocket it will slip. when he advances the film lever. If it does, one of the 2 conditions I stated is the problem

AgX · Jul 13, 2020

He stated that if he does so he cannot wind further, thus it does not slip.

chuck3565 · Dec 25, 2022

brainmonster said:
Sorry for the long post but here we go -

I just developed a roll from an LTL3 that I got from Ebay. The frame spacing is too wide and gets larger as it goes on with every frame.

I've read other posts saying that this is a problem with the film sprocket not moving the film properly, and the take up spool only moving the film.

View attachment 250053

View attachment 250052
View attachment 250055

The inside of the takeup sprocket is cracked from forcing the advance lever at the end of the film roll. A very common Praktica issue. I would try to get my money back.

Praktica LTL3 frame spacing problems - camera problem or user error?

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