Practical Way to Convert Kodak D-19 to D-11?

Lately I've been doing some work with a lab that does X-ray dupes. They use D-11 and tell me their supply is dwindling. Sure, they can mix it from scratch, but it appears that that would be far more expensive and also more error-prone.

I've noted that D-11 is very similar to D-19 just that D-11 has 68 grains less Elon, about 2 3/4 oz.less Na Sulfite (dess.), 8 grains more Hydroquinone, and 3 1/8 oz. less Sodium Carbonate (dess.) to the U.S. gal. While it'd be easy to add the Hydroquinone, I have no idea what could be done to counteract the Elon, and the sodium compounds. Is it possible to rig up something similar to D-11 from D-19 powder?

Thanks!

It would seem easier to mix it from scratch than to figure out how much of each chemical there is per liter and readjust the proportions.

FilmIs4Ever said:

Lately I've been doing some work with a lab that does X-ray dupes. They use D-11 and tell me their supply is dwindling. Sure, they can mix it from scratch, but it appears that that would be far more expensive and also more error-prone.

I've noted that D-11 is very similar to D-19 just that D-11 has 68 grains less Elon, about 2 3/4 oz.less Na Sulfite (dess.), 8 grains more Hydroquinone, and 3 1/8 oz. less Sodium Carbonate (dess.) to the U.S. gal. While it'd be easy to add the Hydroquinone, I have no idea what could be done to counteract the Elon, and the sodium compounds. Is it possible to rig up something similar to D-11 from D-19 powder?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

The answer here would depend on how good you are with a calculator in doing ratio and proportion problems.

My first action would be to see if the films could tolerate the D19 - if not of that's not allowed, just figure it out one time and write it down for posterity.

Might be far better to try a different commercial developer, there are other developers available - what you haven't told us is what film they are using to make their dupes.

Ilford make some good liquid PQ type contrast developer, probably originally based on ID-72 which is a PQ version of D19b. Also D19b is more contrasty than D19.

Ian

David A. Goldfarb said:

It would seem easier to mix it from scratch than to figure out how much of each chemical there is per liter and readjust the proportions.

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David: It'd be easier, but it would probably necessitate a big jump in the cost of X-ray dupes as it'd be much costlier to mix from scratch, especially taking into account the occasional mixing accidents that require you to dump the whole thing and start over.

D-19 only comes in 1 U.S. gal. kits around here, hence the use of U.S. cust. units. For reference, a U.S. gallon is exactly 231 cubic inches, 3,785.4118 mL-cc's. 453.59237grams/lb. 16 oz/lb. 7000gn./lb.

Frank Szabo said:

The answer here would depend on how good you are with a calculator in doing ratio and proportion problems.

My first action would be to see if the films could tolerate the D19 - if not of that's not allowed, just figure it out one time and write it down for posterity.

Click to expand...

Frank, testing costs money, which is why I am hoping there are known formulae out there for counteracting the preservative and restraining properties of Na-Sulfite and -Carbonate. I'm also hoping there's a chemical that will restrain Metol while leaving the reducing action of Hydroquinone essentially unchanged.

Ian, I'm hoping to not have to switch anything to Ilford. All I can recall being available here locally is ID-11 (D-76 equivalent).

I have never before heard of D-19b. Is it comparable to D-11, or inbetween D-19 (less contrast) and D-11 (more contrast)?

Really? I find it cheaper to mix just about anything I use from bulk chemicals than with commercially prepared solution. It's fairly easy to avoid mixing accidents, particularly if you're always mixing the same quantity, and if you're rebalancing a formula, you still have a probability of mismeasuring.

Like David, although on a different scale I've always found it's very easy to mix from bulk chemicals, also very much cheaper. Never had a problem with inconsistency either. Back in the 70's & 80's I regularly supplied a couple of extremely busy commercial B&W labs with all their film developer, as well as our own company.

Remember that there are Photo suppliers who only sell to trade labs, businesses etc, so what you see on a shelf in a shop is not a good indication of everything sold by a company.

It might be just as easy for the company to change their technique to get the same results with a different developer. They are only aking dupes after all.

Ian

Looking at the D-11 formula, it appears to be active and contrasty. One part metol to 9 hydroquinone, very interesting and I'm not sure how much effect the metol would have. And the amount of Q is much more than the metol can use as a superadditive.

For off the shelf, I would try Dektol. It might work straight out of the box, especially undiluted. It uses almost three times as much carbonate, but the pH difference wouldn't be more than maybe .5, which is almost inconsequential at those levels. You could add 30 grams of sodium sulfite to increase the developer life. You sure don't need it for grain on X-Ray films. D-11 uses 5 grams of Potassium Bromide instead of Dektol's 2, I presume to keep the highlights clear.

I think at worst case adding the sulfite and bromide would put you right in the ballpark.

Or, mix your own! Other than an initial investment, it's much cheaper.

How much of this D-11 does this place go through and at what cost?

Here's 25 gallons for sale

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kodak-D-11-Deve...ryZ29983QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Karl;

The contrast obtained from D-19 goes up as pH goes up. Of course, shelf life goes down as well.

In any event, adding Sodium Hydroxide to D-19 in measured amounts and testing for pH and resulting contrast, you can probably find an easy solution to the problem. Just use an appropriate D-19 - pH combination.

PE

Do you know for a fact that D-19 won't do the job? Maybe all you need is to mix it stronger than the instructions say to, or develop a little longer.

D-19 to D-11

FilmIs4Ever said:

Lately I've been doing some work with a lab that does X-ray dupes. They use D-11 and tell me their supply is dwindling. Sure, they can mix it from scratch, but it appears that that would be far more expensive and also more error-prone.

I've noted that D-11 is very similar to D-19 just that D-11 has 68 grains less Elon, about 2 3/4 oz.less Na Sulfite (dess.), 8 grains more Hydroquinone, and 3 1/8 oz. less Sodium Carbonate (dess.) to the U.S. gal. While it'd be easy to add the Hydroquinone, I have no idea what could be done to counteract the Elon, and the sodium compounds. Is it possible to rig up something similar to D-11 from D-19 powder?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

If you are that worried about the Metol, increase the dilution of D-19 by the ratio of Metol in standard D-19 to that in D-11. Now you must add more hydroquinone yet. I don't have enough information to do all the calculations for you, but by increasing the total volume of D-19 to more than a gallon, you have probably brought the weights of the ingredients other than hydroquinone to about the same as the same volume of standard D-11. Your final result will probably be to dilute the D-19 powder to somewhat more than a gallon and add somewhat more than 8 grains of hydroquinone. The amount of sulfite has fairly wide tolerance, and only if you detect a difference of pH worth worrying about would you need to add carbonate or bicarbonate.

Hey, thanks for the tips guys. I'm glad I read the second page of this post.

Dilute the D-19 that you mix according to package instruction with an equal part of water. For each liter of that add 30 grams of anhydrous sodium sulfite and 5 grams of hydroquinone. The remaining difference is only 1 gram/l of anhydrous sodium carbonate which is negligible out of 25. A U. S. gallon is 3.765 liters. So, make up a gallon package of D-19 into 2 gallons and add 37.85 grams of hydroquinone and 227.1 grams of anhydrous sodium sulfite. It won't make any diffewrence if you use 38 grams of hydroquinone and 227 or 230 grams of sodium sulfite.

If the above is confusing, try this: to the solids in a 1 gallon size package of D-19 add 38 grams of hydroquinone and 230 grams of anhydrous sodium sulfite. Add water to make 2 gallons of D-11.