PQ-TEA Times and Activity

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ruilourosa

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i´m currently using PC-Tea 1+50 in a school lab and using the time guidelines of d-76 1+1 things look good!, will this maintain the same if i substitute ascorbic acid for Hidroquinone?, i believe times will be shorter, can someone give me a stand point?, could i use the d-76 stock times or any charted developer?



Thanks
 

martyryan

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I am not sure what you are trying to do, are you wanting to replace the ascorbic acid in pc-tea with hydroquinone? Not that I will be able to help you if that is what you are wanting but you question is unclear.

Marty
 
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ruilourosa

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unclear? it´s just a substitution!, aparently ascorbic acid and phenidone do not create a thing called adjacency effects, that promotes a more impact and apparently sharper image, but i think substituting ascorbic acid by hidroquinone may do the trick, can anyone help?
 

kozesluk

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substitue it so the concentration of hydroquinone at working dilution will be close to concentration of some phenidone based d-76 clone (fx-18 comes to my mind).
then make test exposures on one film, cut it into thirds and find your own developing time (just start with d-76 1+1 time and adjust it to give a correct contrast and density)...

however - it will be best to match pH of D-76 with TEA in water (you need to find out how much TEA is needed). from that point it will be simple to calculate proper amount of phenidone and hyrdoquinone to be added into the TEA concetrate so it will match D-76.
 
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I think you'll want to add slightly less hydroquinone than you would ascorbic acid. The best thing to do is just test it and adjust it from there.
 

ntenny

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I don't see any reason that vitamin C and hydroquinone would have the same activity levels in general, and anyway, developer interactions are complex enough that you probably have to take a blind guess and experiment.

A "PQ-TEA" formulation would be pretty similar to HC-110, though, and it might be worthwhile just to see if that does what you need before embarking on the project.

-NT
 
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ruilourosa

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no it wouldn´t hc-110 high levels of sulfite do not encourage adjacency effects, in pc-tea or pq-tea we also do not have one thing called superadditivity that highly increases developer activity (this of course caused by the presence of sulfite)
 

srs5694

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Actually, Gainer published a PQ-TEA formula (called "Q-P-TEA" in my notes) in the March/April 2004 issue of Photo Techniques, the same issue in which PC-TEA was introduced. Here's the formula:

Q-P-TEA
triethanolamine, 99%: 100 ml
phenidone: 0.2 g
hydroquinone: 10 g
makes: 0.1 l
dilute 1+50 for use

The same article also has a pyrocatechin-based variant:

CAT-P-TEA
triethanolamine, 99%: 100 ml
phenidone: 0.2 g
pyrocatechin: 10 g
makes: 0.1 l
dilute 1+50 for use

I've not tried either of these formulas, so I can't offer any information but their formulas, which I have handy in my notes. I seem to recall that both are said to be staining developers, though. I'm pretty sure I've got the Photo Techniques issue somewhere; I could look it up for any more information it might contain -- or maybe Patrick Gainer will notice this thread and comment.
 

ntenny

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no it wouldn´t hc-110 high levels of sulfite do not encourage adjacency effects, in pc-tea or pq-tea we also do not have one thing called superadditivity that highly increases developer activity (this of course caused by the presence of sulfite)

I'm far from expert here, but in my understanding superadditivity has nothing to do with the presence or absence of sulfite; it just means that certain pairs of developing agents, in combination, will show more activity together than the sum of the two individually (hence the name). Both the PQ and PC combinations are superadditive. (I dug around and found a reference indicating that the superadditivity of PQ is strongly proportional to the level of sulfite, but the superadditivity of PC is essentially independent of it.)

It's true that HC-110 has some solvent effect from the sulfite, of course, but it's still generally considered a mild acutance developer and I wouldn't be so quick to declare that it doesn't do adjacency effects. It certainly can form pronounced Mackie lines when "solarised" during development, for instance.

I'm also sceptical of the idea that the PC combination doesn't produce adjacency effects, come to think of it---what led you to this conclusion? I haven't done controlled experiments or anything, but the reason I switched over to PC-TEA in the first place was an impression of sharpness, which is often partly a sign of adjacency effects.

-NT
 
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ruilourosa

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a non solvency effect may give that impression, try fx-1 and reflect about impression of sharpness. And yes sulfite must be present for superadditivity just try it in a paper developer.

My goal was to formulate a looong lasting high acutance (more or less like fx-2) developer with a known time table of developing times, this convenience comes from the fact that i want to introduce this developer in a school and without a times guideline its a mess
 

ntenny

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a non solvency effect may give that impression, try fx-1 and reflect about impression of sharpness. And yes sulfite must be present for superadditivity just try it in a paper developer.

Superadditivity is a little off in the weeds wrt adjacency effects, of course, but it's obviously quite relevant to developing times. Here's the passage I found, from Bjelkhagen, _Silver-halide recording materials: for holography and their processing_ (it's a monograph published by Springer in 1995):

==
Comparing the PQ and the phenidone-ascorbic acid developers (PA), the following must be observed. As already mentioned, van Veelen and Willems [4.44] have studied the influence of sulfite on the superadditivity effect of these developers. If there is no sulfite in a PQ developer the superadditive effect will be drastically reduced. A PA developer, however, will be almost independent of the sulfite content. The reason for the sulfite dependance[sic] in a PQ developer is that the regeneration of phenidone by hydroquinone can only occur if sulfite is present. In a PA developer, regeneration occurs even without sulfite.
==

Bjelkhagen is looking at holography rather than conventional photography, but reduction of activated silver is the same in both worlds---I can't think of any reason for this analysis not to apply, though maybe some of the people with real photochemistry chops can give a more informed opinion.

The relevance to your project is that switching from ascorbic acid to hydroquinone might force you to add some sulfite if you want to retain similar levels of developer activity, because otherwise you'll lose the superadditivity that phenidone and ascorbic acid display even in the absence of sulfite.

That said, I'm just taking Bjelkhagen at face value---in principle it should be easy enough to do some experiments with "P-TEA", "C-TEA", and PC-TEA and determine whether there's a noticeable level of superadditivity at play. (But per the Film Developing Cookbook and a lot of conventional wisdom, neither P nor C works well as a sole developing agent...)

On top of everything else, TEA itself is a mild silver solvent, and for all I know it might affect superadditivity as well. Bottom line is that you probably could have mixed up a batch of PQ-TEA and done some experiments to find a set of starting times in the amount of time spent on this thread...and I think that's what you'll have to do anyway.

My goal was to formulate a looong lasting high acutance (more or less like fx-2) developer with a known time table of developing times, this convenience comes from the fact that i want to introduce this developer in a school and without a times guideline its a mess

Maybe I'm missing something, but for school use, why do you need to strive for extreme adjacency effects? (And are you really likely to get something similar to FX-2 without using glycin?)

-NT
 

kozesluk

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hey guys, thanks for a discussion about this topic.
and many thanks for a Q-P-TEA und CAT-P-TEA recipes (haven't seen that before).
 
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ruilourosa

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hello!

sulfite is not soluble in TEA, and at the dilution of 1+50 the silver solvency of TEA is long gone, also, you can check the superadditivity effect of sodium sulfite in mytol, without sulfite is way inactive.

and yes you are wright fx-2 IS fx-2 but my teaching includes a huge variety of developer effects, at least, fine and superfine grain, and acutance developers, and a liquid concentrate is far more user friedly...

fx-1 is always present but a tad excessive

ESAP in Porto (Portugal) is my school

thanks
 

Gerald C Koch

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This innocent question is actually rather complex in nature.

There are no real developing agent substitutions, each agent has it own characteristics and limitations. For example, when substituting ascorbic acid for hydroquinone you must adjust the amount of alkali to account for the added acidity. Some developing agents are soluble in organic solvents while others are not.

Very few developing agents produce useful adjacency effects and only then under certain conditions.. I believe that the best is said to be metol which accounts for its use in the Beutler formula. Paraminophenol (when used as Rodinal) and ascorbic acid produce somewhat less adjacency while others like phenylenediamine produce none at all.
 

Gerald C Koch

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Except when PPD is combined to form Meritol with Pyrocatechin.

Ian

Of course the addition product Meritol disassociates back into ppd and catechol when it is dissoved to form the developer solution. Any adjacency effects would then be caused by the catechol.

Jerry
 

Gerald C Koch

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well, thinking about that... is hydroquinone soluble in TEA? i absolutely don't know...

There is an old rule in chemistry, "like dissolves like." Organic chemicals dissolve in organic solvents and inorganic chamicals dissolve in inorganic solvents like water. So hydroquinoe will dissolve in TEA.
 
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