Post developing temperatures

Now that we are in summer here in Shanghai, ambient temperature is much higher than developing temps. I normally develop my film either in DD-X or HC-110, always at 20 C. now my stop bath, fixer, and wash water temps are around 26-27 degrees C. That's a large difference from 20 C. I iced down my fixer the first time i saw this, dropping 4-5 ice cubes into the beaker to drop it below 25 C but I don't want to keep diluting my fixer that way. Using an ice bath is not practical in my tiny bathroom. Nor is getting large amounts of ice as fridges here in China are extremely tiny. At least mine is.

How significant are these temperature differences? I've done 4 rolls so far and everything seems OK but I keep worrying that something might be going on that I am missing.

Thanks!

DDX will operate perfectly well at at least 25C. Have a look at Ilford's temp/dev time conversion. Fixer should also be fine at 25C

The key is to have all your liquids within 1-2C.

pentaxuser

It's always better to get all the chemistry down to 20 degrees C. If stop and fix is too warm, this will soften your emulsion and your film will be prone to scratches. If you go the other way with warm developer then cold stop and fix, you can reticulate your film.

pentaxuser said:

DDX will operate perfectly well at at least 25C. Have a look at Ilford's temp/dev time conversion. Fixer should also be fine at 25C

The key is to have all your liquids within 1-2C.

pentaxuser

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Developer temps are not a problem. I am ALWAYS at 20C. As you can see above, my downstream process liquids are 7-8 degrees C higher than 20 C. What will the results of this be?

Mainecoonmaniac said:

It's always better to get all the chemistry down to 20 degrees C. If stop and fix is too warm, this will soften your emulsion and your film will be prone to scratches. If you go the other way with warm developer then cold stop and fix, you can reticulate your film.

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What about my wash temps? The water out of the "cold" water tap is 28 C!

What film are you using? If it's Kodak for example, you will probably not see a problem from that.
There are usually recommendations for 75f development as well which will produce less of temp change.

jp498 said:

What film are you using? If it's Kodak for example, you will probably not see a problem from that.
There are usually recommendations for 75f development as well which will produce less of temp change.

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Acros, HP5, and Delta 3200 are the films I develop.

Oh my

RattyMouse said:

What about my wash temps? The water out of the "cold" water tap is 28 C!

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How about using hypo clear then just fill and dump with 68 degree water? Take a look at this.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/ilfwash.pdf

I have this problem too in Japan. In all honesty, I don't worry too much about it and haven't noticed any differences in my negs (I shoot the same film as you, minus the Delta). However, there are a few things that I do to deal with temperature differences. First of all, I keep some water ready for mixing in the fridge. Assuming that you dilute your developer then you can get your temperature close to 20C. I do this same for "stop", which is just water for me (it's easier to control the temp and I don't have to worry about how the hard water is going to react to the acid -- I've had pinholes in my negs because of this). And since I mix a new batch of fix almost every time, that's controllable too. (If you don't want to mix new fix every time then but your working solution in some ice water in the kitchen or bathtub or wherever there's room before you start developing.) The only thing that isn't temperature controllable is the wash water, but I haven't had any problems, even though there is a significant temperature difference. I know people can be pretty anal about controlling these variables, but I think most modern film emulsions are pretty hardy.

I've had some people suggest to develop, stop, and fix at the same temperature (that is, the temp of the wash water - say 26, 27 degrees - that is within the temperature limits of the film/developer), but that didn't work for me. All my negs turned out grey, like they were fogged somehow, so I haven't gone that route in years.

Again, this is just in my personal experience, having developed film in three different countries in multiple locations and with various levels of control at each step. But I'm far from being an expert, so, as always, you should do your own tests and see if it works for you.

If you use Kodak or Ilford film the 5~7 degree temp difference between developer and fixer & wash is not an issue. Don't worry. Be happy.

You do not NEED to have the developer at 20 degrees C, just cool enough to have developing times longer than five minutes.

I regularly develop sheet film in trays at high temperatures to save time. For example my Fomapan 200 in Xtol (replenished) yields the same result in 4 minutes at 30 Celcius, 11 minutes 15 seconds at 20 Celcius, and 18 minutes 30 seconds at 15 Celcius. These numbers are checked and confirmed by practical experiment.

Modern films don't dissolve in warm developer. Remember that the E6 process runs at 100 F as standard. I find developing to a precise level is much easier by adjusting developing time (to the second if necessary) rather than by making relatively coarse adjustments by changing temperature. For example reducing and maintaining the temperature of all my processing solutions from 27 Celcius to 20 Celcius is really awkward to do precisely but changing my development time from 11 minutes 15 seconds (20 Celcius) to 5 minutes 40 seconds (27 Celcius) is really easy to do precisely.

The down side is the work involved in calibrating individual films and developers into a reliable time versus temperature chart. I do this to save being hostage to my thermometer everytime the temperature isn't 20 Celcius.

You're using all very modern films so quit worrying: you can either develop hotter (and have a uniform process temp), or develop at 20C and wash hotter (easy to keep in control) and it will be totally fine either way.

Putting an older-style (e.g. Efke, Foma, probably Shanghai) film from a warm developer into cold fixer/wash will probably cause reticulation, but not with the good materials you're using, and not with a temperature increase. The emulsion will be softer, but not so soft that it should be a problem.

I live in the southwest, where the temps climb also.
I develop usually in the morning, when its the coolest, and have a three gallon water container, which is about 3/4's full, in the developing room (my camper when not being used) that has a spigot on it, and like mooseontheloose, use some water that is stored in the refrigerator, and add it till we hit the temp. This gives me my development liquid, stop and rinse water all at the same temp. My fix is stored in a plastic jug, when I first come in, I put this into an old deep pot and add some of the refrigerator water to cool it down, to get close to the correct temp.. a degree or two, but don't get annal about it.

I too live in a hot climate with tap water temps around 26C in the summer.
I just develop, fix and wash at whatever temperature the temperature is of the mixed solutions, usually around 24-25C and wash at tap water temperature. I just adjust the developing time according to the Ilford Time/Temperature chart and I can't say I have ever had any problems.

OK, good to know. I'll continue to develop at 20 C and then stop, fix, and wash at 27 or 28 C.

Thanks!

I keep the developer at 20 - 24 C during the developing process while the remain baths (wash-stop, fixer, wash) are around 30, sometimes over 32. From 135 to 8x10, never have a problem (so far).

As you don't have a problem, Ratty, and the post is already ansvered, I just want to say wow, why no aircon?

Jaf-Photo said:

As you don't have a problem, Ratty, and the post is already ansvered, I just want to say wow, why no aircon?

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What makes you think I dont have air conditioning? I certainly do! But that does not cool the water coming out of the faucet. Also my bathroom does not get much a/c so my fixer stays around 25 C or more. That's why my post developing liquids are all at elevated temperatures. After developing two rolls, I'm a bit sweaty and need to head into other parts of the house to cool down.

Ah, ok.

Then I have an idea. Why not keep chems and water for washes in bottles in a cool room? Then you could move them to the bathroom just before starting. Maybe keep them in a beer cooler to avoid temerature rise?

I find that keeping all liquids at the same temperature helps my negatives.

I take it once you get the water temp down to what you want i.e. 20C then the a/c keeps that water from rising in temperature over the development time.

If your development times are relatively short it shouldn't be a problem. The easy was to check is to pour water in at 20C and check its temp at whatever is the dev time you need.

pentaxuser

I would develop at 24C, and then do the rest at ambient temperature.

The recommendation for 68F arose in places like England and Rochester, NY. Half the time there, that means turning the heat higher!

Sirius Glass said:

You do not NEED to have the developer at 20 degrees C, just cool enough to have developing times longer than five minutes.

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Five minutes comes from Kodak and other companies based on the concept that time period is long enough to prevent artifacts from the developer being poured in and out of the tank. My experience has reinforced that five minute guideline. A guideline and not a cast iron rule.