Possibly loaded 120 incorrectly

stephsleeps · Sep 1, 2020

My S/O just got his own mamiya to play with and we were shooting fine and dandy tonight. Fast forward to finishing the roll I watch him open up the back and I’m shocked to see the black part of the roll on the outside with adhesive inside, instead of the usual paper with the adhesive on the outside clear to see and (not tucked away in the black part).

He assured me he loaded everything correct with the black side facing the lens. Fresh roll on the left hand side being spooled into the reel on the right hand side... I even saw when he was loading and gave him the “ok”. Although I was in a rush so I could’ve possibly been horribly wrong... BUT- he did say that when he was advancing for the “start” arrow to be lined up- it appeared winding in spinning from the right (inside) instead of the left(outer). I asked him because I know that normally the arrow spins in from the left and meets the indicator going right. (Sorry if this part is confusing)

Does anyone know what happened? Did he load it upside down or something? I was just about to develop it, but it doesn’t sound right?

Rick A · Sep 1, 2020

Which model Mamiya, C series TLR's or RB/RZ, or M645?

pentaxuser · Sep 1, 2020

When you say black part on the outside I am unclear about what you mean. The film emulsion needs to be facing the lens so when the shutter opens the light from the lens gets to the emulsion to form an image. If the backing paper faces the shutter and lens then light will not reach the emulsion.

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

There are a few 120 cameras or film backs that wind the takeup "backward" -- film (or, at the end, black side of the backing) out. I'm not aware of any TLR that does so, and I know for certain that RB67 backs do no; I'm pretty sure M645 inserts and film backs don't. Most cameras also have a Bendix or ratchet arrangement to prevent winding the advance the wrong direction -- but if he did wind the advance key or crank the wrong way, that would result in the film rolling up "inside out" on the takeup spool.

If you process your own film, you'll know as soon as you start to load the film onto the reel. If not, the lab should pick it up instantly by seeing the black side of the backing paper.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 1, 2020

stephsleeps said:
My S/O just got his own mamiya to play with and we were shooting fine and dandy tonight. Fast forward to finishing the roll I watch him open up the back and I’m shocked to see the black part of the roll on the outside with adhesive inside, instead of the usual paper with the adhesive on the outside clear to see and (not tucked away in the black part).

He assured me he loaded everything correct with the black side facing the lens. Fresh roll on the left hand side being spooled into the reel on the right hand side... I even saw when he was loading and gave him the “ok”. Although I was in a rush so I could’ve possibly been horribly wrong... BUT- he did say that when he was advancing for the “start” arrow to be lined up- it appeared winding in spinning from the right (inside) instead of the left(outer). I asked him because I know that normally the arrow spins in from the left and meets the indicator going right. (Sorry if this part is confusing)

Does anyone know what happened? Did he load it upside down or something? I was just about to develop it, but it doesn’t sound right?

I have 'exposed ' the paper in my Hasselblad due to wrong film loading a couple of times.

Daire Quinlan · Sep 1, 2020

OTOH it's certainly possible to put the roll in facing the wrong direction so it will happily wind it inside out, which would result in the black side of the backing paper facing out and the sticker being on the 'inside' as the OP has described.

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

Looking back at the OP, "left" and "right" seem to imply an RB or RZ. Both of these are easy to load backward/inverted, because the roll looks backward when it's correctly loaded, before pulling the paper leader across the gate. I haven't done it yet with my RB, but I'm sure I will eventually. Same could be done with an M645 insert (but that would be bottom to top, rather than left to right).

ic-racer · Sep 1, 2020

Every medium format camera I know can be loaded with the supply spool upside down ( unwinding the wrong way.) There is nothing to prevent that that I have ever seen.

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

ic-racer said:
Every medium format camera I know can be loaded with the supply spool upside down ( unwinding the wrong way.) There is nothing to prevent that that I have ever seen.

True, but with most of them you'll see the error before you start the frame counter -- the start arrows won't come up or the tape and film will appear in the red window instead of numbers. The RB (and I presume the RZ) has the arrows still on the supply roll when you close it up, so if you loaded it inverted, you wouldn't have any check.

pentaxuser · Sep 1, 2020

Certainly when I first moved from a folder with a red window to a P645N with an insert I intuitively wanted to load the film so the backing paper was showing on the outside as it has to in a folder so you see the backing paper and not the emulsion through the red window. In both the folder's and the P645N's cases the emulsion remains facing the lens with correct loading but I was intuitively tempted to load the P645N inside out. In effect the backing paper in the P645N once the roll is at the start position and the insert is attached to the back of the camera, performs no function as there is no window in the insert to allow light in.

However it is easy to get it wrong

pentaxuser

R.Gould · Sep 1, 2020

Mamiya 645 slr's load from top to bottom, and are loaded with the back of the paper facing out, as does my Bronica's, and if you loaded the insert or back with the printed paper facing towards the lens then you can wind to the starting point, but you would end up with the black paper facing out, I have just tried it with an old backing paper, so if the OP was using something like a mamiya slr that could have been the cause, can't happen with a TLR, but if you are new to these cameras, without any instructions the it would be an easy mistake to make,

MattKing · Sep 1, 2020

The OP indicates in another thread that her camera is a 1000s, so her S/O may have something similar.
If it is one of the Mamiya 645s, one loads an insert outside of the camera, so with respect to which way the film advances - left, right, up or down - all options are available!

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

R.Gould said:
Mamiya 645 slr's load from top to bottom, and are loaded with the back of the paper facing out.

There are (at least) two generations of Mamiya 645. The M645, M6451000s, and M645J have an insert; the later versions have a replaceable back with dark slide similar to those on Bronica, Hasselblad, Kiev 88, etc. Both top to bottom? The inserts (in both) would be loaded the same way those on my RB67 are -- the backing has to show the black side from one spool to the other in all these inserts before they go into the camera or film back.

Edit: Wait -- with the M645, this may depend on whether the focal distance is all inside the mirror box, or part of it is inside the film insert.

MattKing · Sep 1, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
There are (at least) two generations of Mamiya 645. The M645, M6451000s, and M645J have an insert; the later versions have a replaceable back with dark slide similar to those on Bronica, Hasselblad, Kiev 88, etc. Both top to bottom?

Both generations of Mamiya 645s use the same inserts, and are loaded the same way, because one loads the insert outside the camera or back, as the case may require.
And don't forget to add the much more recent 645e to the M645, M645-1000s and M645-J group - it too doesn't work with a replaceable back.
I tend to load my inserts top to bottom, but any of the four iterations would work as well.

stephsleeps · Sep 1, 2020

MattKing said:
The OP indicates in another thread that her camera is a 1000s, so her S/O may have something similar

Hi yes, I own the 1000s and gave my RB to my s/o. So this all happened with the RB system.

MattKing · Sep 1, 2020

The RB inserts are easy to mistakenly load with the film backwards, although that does make it hard to see the Start marker.

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

MattKing said:
The RB inserts are easy to mistakenly load with the film backwards, although that does make it hard to see the Start marker.

Very true. I haven't done it (yet), but every tutorial video I've seen for RB67 emphasizes getting the roll the right way around.

stephsleeps · Sep 1, 2020

MattKing said:
The RB inserts are easy to mistakenly load with the film backwards, although that does make it hard to see the Start marker.

I did see that the start was visible very clear when he loaded it.. it’s what made me give him the ok when he showed me. And the black emulsion part was facing towards the lens. Which also made me think he loaded it correctly.
The only part that sounds weird is how he explained the start spun through coming from right to left and the black part ended up on the outside when the roll was finished.
Either I didn’t check thoroughly enough and he did indeed roll it backwards, or there must’ve been a really bad mistake with this particular roll of 400h . Oh man, it’s driving me nuts and I feel bad.

radiant · Sep 1, 2020

I've been shooting with Rolleiflex for 20 years and bought Yashica C. Of course I loaded the film under the first roller (like it is on RF 3.5B) on Yashica C too and got really really scratched negatives

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

Found this no-video manual -- though I presume the OP knows how to load the RB, the SO might not be really confident (especially after getting an inside out roll).

BTW, you could save that roll by spooling it back to an empty spool (right side in) and reloading it. The film should be fine (possibly a little scratched from the pressure plate, at worst) if you haven't let it unroll.

stephsleeps · Sep 1, 2020

Rick A said:
Which model Mamiya, C series TLR's or RB/RZ, or M645?

This happened with the RB

stephsleeps · Sep 1, 2020

Daire Quinlan said:
OTOH it's certainly possible to put the roll in facing the wrong direction so it will happily wind it inside out, which would result in the black side of the backing paper facing out and the sticker being on the 'inside' as the OP has described.

I believe this is what happened. Everything seemed right to him while loading....except when the roll was finished, and we found it to seem inside out

stephsleeps · Sep 1, 2020

pentaxuser said:
When you say black part on the outside I am unclear about what you mean. The film emulsion needs to be facing the lens

pentaxuser

Hi, yes the black part/film emulsion side was facing towards the lens. Or so it seemed ??

stephsleeps · Sep 1, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Found this no-video manual -- though I presume the OP knows how to load the RB, the SO might not be really confident (especially after getting an inside out roll).

I am not so sure about myself now as I’ve let this happen to my S/O. Although it’s never happened to me out of the 10+ years shooting the RB. It truly feels like I’m losing my mind because I was so sure he loaded it correctly. I should have known when he said the “start” spun in from the opposite direction...

MattKing · Sep 1, 2020

Is there any chance that the film he loaded had already been exposed?

Possibly loaded 120 incorrectly

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