Possible C-41 horribly developed

Young He · Dec 2, 2017

Hello all,
I just pulled a print from the processing drum and it has a horrid cyan cast to what I believe should be a grey/possibly white building. I do not think it is a problem with my RA-4 chemicals, although I could be wrong. I have reason to think that it is a developing issue with the film, as I developed it quickly and did not pay too much attention to getting within .1 F. I don't think it is a filtration problem as I think I am using the same filtration as normal and I have not changed my film.

Can someone please tell me if this is a correctable problem (i.e. my filtration is off) or due to my inability to measure temperature with a thermometer? Any help would be much appreciated. I have attached a very compressed and cropped photo as I cannot upload higher resolution photos. Thanks.

Edit: I might have been overreacting: it might be correctable, but I don't know yet without trying.

pentaxuser · Dec 2, 2017

I am sure responders will appreciate that you mean RA4 and not C41 in your thread but it might make sense to change the thread's title. Have you any idea how close to the correct temperature you got? RA4 can be developed successfully at as low as 20 C but of course the lower the developing temperature the longer it needs. Tells us what your process is with RA4, including target temp and what you think the temperature might have been. It certainly isn't necessary to get as close as 0.1F to the usual temperature which is 35C for the shortest dev time and is what Jobo processor aim for with a heated water bath

If the neg looks to be properly developed then if the chemicals are fresh it should be possible to correct the cast. Was the Kodak sign white in the real world? The whole print looks unusually desaturated but I am not convinced that it is a cyan cast. Have you tried to change the filtration to correct a cyan cast? If not do so and have a look at the result and show it to us.

pentaxuser

btaylor · Dec 2, 2017

Make some more prints from the rest of the roll and see how they look. That's where I would start. I agree with pentaxuser, the print doesn't look right, very desaturated, perhaps fogged.

Young He · Dec 2, 2017

I am sorry, I did not be specific enough. I am under the impression that I had an error when I developed the film, not with the paper. I have processed RA-4 at room temperature before with perfect prints, so it might just be a filtration error. The Kodak sign was, IIRC, yellow. Thanks for the help. I will try to print another print with different filtration and see how it turns out. The negatives look correctly developed and not fogged, so I am not sure what the desaturation issue is.

Young He · Dec 2, 2017

I might have an answer to the saturation issue. I took my film through an x-ray machine at least five times that trip, so it might have fogged the film. However, I have previously taken the same brand and type of film through an x-ray machine several times and did not notice any problems.

JoJo · Dec 3, 2017

For me this looks like very old and expired paper.

Joachim

WilmarcoImaging · Dec 3, 2017

Here is a version using only simple postprocessing effort, aiming at better color balance (filtration). I am a very elementary postprocessor, so my thought is the original results are from filtration.

Young He · Dec 3, 2017

The paper is almost new, I just bought it a few months ago. The graininess is due to the fact that I had to compress the photo a lot so I could upload it. Thanks for your postprocessing attempt, it seems like the problem is stemming from incorrect filtration.

RPC · Dec 3, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I am sure responders will appreciate that you mean RA4 and not C41 in your thread but it might make sense to change the thread's title. Have you any idea how close to the correct temperature you got? RA4 can be developed successfully at as low as 20 C but of course the lower the developing temperature the longer it needs. Tells us what your process is with RA4, including target temp and what you think the temperature might have been. It certainly isn't necessary to get as close as 0.1F to the usual temperature which is 35C for the shortest dev time and is what Jobo processor aim for with a heated water bath

If the neg looks to be properly developed then if the chemicals are fresh it should be possible to correct the cast. Was the Kodak sign white in the real world? The whole print looks unusually desaturated but I am not convinced that it is a cyan cast. Have you tried to change the filtration to correct a cyan cast? If not do so and have a look at the result and show it to us.

pentaxuser

Reread the OP and you will see he said he thought the problem might be with the film he developed (C-41).

Young He · Dec 3, 2017

I tried correcting the tint by subtracting 10 magenta and 5 yellow, but the cast was even greater than before. Could this possibly be a bad RA-4 developer?

WilmarcoImaging · Dec 3, 2017

Young He, it may be that the RA4 experts are not watching this thread, because of the title. Maybe if you start a new thread with "RA4" in the title, you would get more input. I am not an RA4-savvy person, sorry I can't be of much help.

RPC · Dec 3, 2017

If the temperature was too far off when you developed the film you would have crossover which would make it difficult to get balanced color in the print. Other factors could be causing your problem, but I would say negative crossover is a strong possibility. Use your paper and chemistry on other known good negatives as a test.

Rudeofus · Dec 4, 2017

Young He said:
I tried correcting the tint by subtracting 10 magenta and 5 yellow, but the cast was even greater than before. Could this possibly be a bad RA-4 developer?

If you want to reduce magenta cast, you have to increase magenta filtration. It's a negative process ...

pentaxuser · Dec 4, 2017

WilmarcoImaging said:
Maybe if you start a new thread with "RA4" in the title, you would get more input. .

That was precisely the point I was trying to make when I suggested a change to the title. The OP said he wasn't able to get the temperature correct to within 0.1F but there is no need to be that accurate. However if we accept that there may be a need to be as close to 100 F as say 1F then we need to know how close he got and we haven't been told this. Having said this, I have seen good examples of negatives shown here on Photrio produced at much lower temperature that the standard 100F or 38 C.

So we have a minus 10M and a minus 5Y making things worse but it would still be useful to see the actual difference to the colours that this made

We have a possibility of bad RA4 developer so we need to know how long it had been stored and whether it was already opened i.e. had the concentrate been opened several times and if so when was it first opened and what attempt was made to prevent oxidisation of the concentrate.

Is it possible to detect crossover from a picture of the negative? If so a picture of the negative would be useful and might solve the issue

There still remain a lot of unanswered questions,some of which may be impossible to answer now but currently and without a concerted effort by all of us, including the OP we are effectively "punching the air"

pentaxuser

sfaber · Dec 4, 2017

Consider the possibility that you had some red LED around like timer or analyzer LED, or extension cord red light or phone in pocket with the red light etc.

trendland · Dec 4, 2017

Young He said:
I might have an answer to the saturation issue. I took my film through an x-ray machine at least five times that trip, so it might have fogged the film. However, I have previously taken the same brand and type of film through an x-ray machine several times and did not notice any problems.

Nice to hear about - sure it is a bad experience you made - so it is real sad to you.
But I remember a couple of weeks ago
I warned about modernest x-ray machines wich may desroy films also films with lower speed.
Soon a real strom was coming over me.
Sure the danger is relative to several circumstances and the dose of x-ray.
But experience of "not notice any problems in the past" is no guarantee in the future.

with regards

RPC · Dec 4, 2017

The OP thought it was likely a C-41 problem, that's why he didn't say RA-4. If he is going to change the title, it should be something like, "Is this a C-41 or RA-4 problem, or both?".

MattKing · Dec 4, 2017

As I read the OP's opening post, I think he would have been less confusing if he had used a title that read: "RA-4 print colour poor - is this due to C41 film development problems?"

pentaxuser · Dec 4, 2017

MattKing said:
As I read the OP's opening post, I think he would have been less confusing if he had used a title that read: "RA-4 print colour poor - is this due to C41 film development problems?"

Excellent suggestion, Mark. All we need now is some more answers from Young He

pentaxuser

MattKing · Dec 4, 2017

pentaxuser said:
Excellent suggestion, Mark. All we need now is some more answers from Young He

pentaxuser

It looks to me like you have your "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John" just a bit mixed up.

RPC · Dec 5, 2017

With all due respect to the OP he would have served us better if he had tested his RA-4 process with a good negative before posting. If it was good, then he could point the finger at his C-41 process. This would be preferable to posting without giving us more information.

pentaxuser said:
Having said this, I have seen good examples of negatives shown here on Photrio produced at much lower temperature that the standard 100F or 38 C.

When C-41 is developed at lower temperatures, one usually extends development time to compensate which would still produce some crossover but minimize it. There is no indication the OP did that so IF his temperature was too low the film would have suffered underdevelopment and would likely be visible.

pentaxuser · Dec 5, 2017

MattKing said:
It looks to me like you have your "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John" just a bit mixed up.

You're right, Matt and my apologies. First names confuse me. Coming from Scotland we are nearly all called Jimmy. I had to emigrate as I am not called Jimmy

pentaxuser

Bob Carnie · Dec 5, 2017

Young He said:
I tried correcting the tint by subtracting 10 magenta and 5 yellow, but the cast was even greater than before. Could this possibly be a bad RA-4 developer?

- 10m and - 5 yellow just added magenta yellow... I suggest you start with a ring around and keep it in your workspace to help you colour correct.

RPC · Dec 5, 2017

There is of course also the possibility the film is overdeveloped due to too high a temperature. Underdevelopment will affect the lower cyan layer more than the other layers, causing cyan highlights and red shadows. However, looking back at the OP's print I see red highlights and cyan shadows, (at least on my monitor, and I realize scans can't always be trusted) so the opposite may have happened. This is assuming the RA-4 process is fine.

Possible C-41 horribly developed

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