Positive to Positive prining, color

lightwisps · Jan 17, 2013

Does anyone know of a positive to positive method of printing color slides. I am getting desparate as Ilfochrome is completely gone. I wish someone would at least make some chemicals. I have a ton of paper. Thanks in advance for any ideas. Don

AgX · Jan 17, 2013

Aside of using Ilfochrome, the latest late material for positive-positive printing, the more classic way would be that of using a inter-negative.
However all designated inter-negative films, are gone too. There is one cine-internegative film left, but that will be off the market soon too.

Third way would be to reverse-process RA-4 paper.

darkroom_rookie · Jan 17, 2013

Been doing internegatives on tungsten film for a while now. It works extremely well. You do need to overexpose and then underdevelop to tame contrast, and sometimes add a bit Y filtration for some very cold Velvia shots, but generally the biggest worry is dust. I'm using grounded metal Hama contact printing frame, anti-static wipes and a dichroic 200W-bulb enlarger. Get a good supply of same-type and preferably also same-batch tungsten film, test it thorougly and you're in business. Mine is Kodak 100T.

AgX · Jan 17, 2013

All long exposure films have gone too.

ndrs · Jan 17, 2013

lightwisps said:
Does anyone know of a positive to positive method of printing color slides. I am getting desparate as Ilfochrome is completely gone. I wish someone would at least make some chemicals. I have a ton of paper. Thanks in advance for any ideas. Don

Do you mean you have a ton of Ilfochrome paper? The Ilfochrome chemicals are still easily available.

AgX · Jan 17, 2013

Whereas those chemistries are not even listed at Ilford any more, their german importer for instance has them deliberately still listed for the next months to serve those who still have stock of paper.
It seems the situation is different for Canada.

nworth · Jan 17, 2013

A while back, PE reported decent results by reversal processing Kodak Endura paper. Use D-72 as a first developer, rinse well, re-expose, and process as for RA-4. I know this does not work using Fuji Crystal Archive.

darkroom_rookie · Jan 18, 2013

nworth said:
A while back, PE reported decent results by reversal processing Kodak Endura paper. Use D-72 as a first developer, rinse well, re-expose, and process as for RA-4. I know this does not work using Fuji Crystal Archive.

Strange, it worked for me with Crystal Archive (FG, not Type II). The first developer wasn't D-72, though, but a mixture of Ilford PQ and D-76. Tried it with Ultra Endura F and N as well, and those looked a bit better to my eyes. Crystal Archive had warmer, almost brownish shadows. Velvia on Endura was pretty cold in tones. Contrast is far too high, even with Sensia. Still have to try it with Astia and CDU-II, thouse could work better. Not sure if added sodium sulphite could help with contrast, there's a lengthy thread here on APUG on reversal RA-4, it's worth digging through it.

Stephen Frizza · Jan 18, 2013

Ilfoflex when processed via RA-4 reversal is the most promising pos to pos process i have tested, So much so that this year I am looking into converting my Ilfochrome processor to an ilfoflex reversal machine. The great advantage over the process compared to Ilfochrome is better contrast control via manipulation of the first developer.

darkroom_rookie · Jan 18, 2013

Stephen, is this manipulation specific to Ilfoflex (not easily available!) or could it work with Crystal Archive, be it Type I or II? I'm still interested in this process. Could you provide more detailed information?

DREW WILEY · Jan 18, 2013

I'm making internegs with Kodak color neg sheet film then printing them onto Fuji CAII. It's a whole
new learning curve since the demise of Ciba, and way too complicated in nuances to describe here
if one expects very high quality results (I do). But it can be done. A dedicated interneg film is not
necessary, and would be obsolete anyway. But other than that general remark, the details get fairly
technical.

Stephen Frizza · Jan 19, 2013

darkroom_rookie said:
Stephen, is this manipulation specific to Ilfoflex (not easily available!) or could it work with Crystal Archive, be it Type I or II? I'm still interested in this process. Could you provide more detailed information?

the other papers are a lot harder to control the contrast and colour with, they also have chemical issues with consistency and some papers get an odd mottle though them. The Ilfoflex is by far the most stable and consistent for Ra-4 reversal and with its high gloss using the same base as Ilfochrome it has a very similar feel.
I strongly feel the only way forward for ilfochrome in analog is Ilfoflex reversal.

WayneStevenson · Jan 19, 2013

Where on earth are you getting Ilfoflex from? Are you in North America?

AgX · Jan 19, 2013

Wayne, I guess you are located in the US. At first glance I can't find a dealer there. Ask Ilford. They are in Conneticut.

darkroom_rookie · Jan 21, 2013

Stephen Frizza said:
the other papers are a lot harder to control the contrast and colour with, they also have chemical issues with consistency and some papers get an odd mottle though them. The Ilfoflex is by far the most stable and consistent for Ra-4 reversal and with its high gloss using the same base as Ilfochrome it has a very similar feel.
I strongly feel the only way forward for ilfochrome in analog is Ilfoflex reversal.

Mottle seems to be/have been an issue with Kodak Radiance R3 papers as well. So it's all about the Melinex polyester base... But what about the satisfying color balance? How do you manage that? Shame this thread is about to get buried since most people gave up on optical printing of slide film.
And really, where does one obtain Ilfoflex in Europe?

Stephen Frizza · Jan 22, 2013

darkroom_rookie said:
Mottle seems to be/have been an issue with Kodak Radiance R3 papers as well. So it's all about the Melinex polyester base... But what about the satisfying color balance? How do you manage that? Shame this thread is about to get buried since most people gave up on optical printing of slide film.
And really, where does one obtain Ilfoflex in Europe?

colour accuracy Isnt a problem with Ilfoflex. I have printed off color tests with various colour charts. A grey scale chart is neutral, and there is no issues with colour crossover. The main issue is contrast. The Ilfoflex causes the developer to exhaust quickly and as a result the contrast drops so you need to balance the replenishment just right to maintain consistent results. It ends up being an expensive process not just because of the paper but the developer requirements.

AgX · Jan 22, 2013

The Ilfoflex causes the developer to exhaust quickly.

Interesting, I was in the belief all RA-papers behaved the same concerning processing.

MartinP · Jan 25, 2013

If I recall correctly, Ilfoflex isn't a paper but a polyester material. The datasheet is here.

Recommended replenishment is 250ml per square-metre for Ilfoflex, while for Kodak's standard RA4 process it is 170ml (depends somewhat on the machine and manner of replenishment, according to their docs) so there is a slight difference in recommended use. Why? - I have no idea, but also don't forget reversal processing is not exactly the expected manner of using the materials, so there will be further differences due to that for sure.

perkeleellinen · Jan 25, 2013

So where can you buy this paper / material from?

MartinP · Jan 25, 2013

perkeleellinen said:
So where can you buy this paper / material from?

Good question. Out of curiosity, I looked on the website and the nearest to me seemed to be in Germany (next door country) but that supplier no longer had it listed on their website.

The Ilford (ie. the Swiss company, not Harman in UK) website is here, so one could ask them directly I suppose. The sizes listed were only large rolls from what I saw, so it might not be very convenient for amateur darkroom use.

AgX · Jan 25, 2013

It is still listed by that distributor (on their German language site).

AgX · Jan 25, 2013

The issue with Ilford is that the marketing of their halide products is erratic at its best.

darkroom_rookie · Feb 1, 2013

Stephen, care to share some more details on this reversal process you're doing with Ilfoflex?

kuparikettu · Feb 2, 2013

I wonder if some distributor here in Europe would be interested in buying Ilfoflex and cutting it to sheets. That would be great, because I have had some success with reversal RA-4 and the qualities Ilfoflex have might be just the thing needed to achieve better prints.

darkroom_rookie · Feb 3, 2013

Perhaps we should ask Nordfoto in Germany. Anyone else interested?

Positive to Positive prining, color

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