Positive News from Tetenal

Henning Serger · Sep 20, 2020

138S said:
I'd would suggest Tetenal to make the 5L kit again, including a mini Protectan can in the kit, with proper preservation instructions.

Nothing wrong with an additional 5L kit in the mid-term. But Tetenal would then compete with the excellent Fuji Hunt 5L kit, which is offering perfect quality and the lowest development cost per film.
The bigger and more attractive market gap is currently in the lower volume consumers group: Lots of new color reversal film shooters lately, but most of them are using not more than 10-15 films p.a.
For this customer group the reintroduction of the former 1L kit would be perfect. Two years ago at Photokina (before their insolvency) Tetenal said they are thinking about it, offering the 1L kit again. Would make sense to reconsider it now.

138S said:
It is well stated that the E-6 concentrates can keep well for a year if protected with preserving gass after opened, I've done this many times: mixing what needed and gas-preserving the remaining concentrates.

Shelf life of E6 chemicals can indeed be significantly extended easily and at negligible costs by using Protectan and glass bottles (after opening the original concentrates for the first processing). I am also using different sizes of bottles so that over the time the bottles are either completely filled, or only a small space must be filled with Protectan.

Best regards,
Henning

Tom Kershaw · Sep 20, 2020

Henning Serger said:
Shelf life of E6 chemicals can indeed be significantly extended easily and at negligible costs by using Protectan and glass bottles (after opening the original concentrates for the first processing). I am also using different sizes of bottles so that over the time the bottles are either completely filled, or only a small space must be filled with Protectan.

In the last few weeks I've started to use the Fujihunt kit and have been impressed by the results. I've also come to realise I need to make adjustments in my mind-set to go between the larger scale approach of Flexicolor or XTOL, and careful management of small amounts of solution to make efficient use of the 5L E-6 kit, i.e I could probably do with some 250ml and 100ml glass bottles not just have 500ml as my smallest size.

138S · Sep 20, 2020

Henning Serger said:
Nothing wrong with an additional 5L kit in the mid-term. But Tetenal would then compete with the excellent Fuji Hunt 5L kit, which is offering perfect quality and the lowest development cost per film.

IMO the competition is not that direct, the Hunt is 6 bath and for amateur not automated processors (Jobo CPE, etc) the tetenal 3 bath is quite more convenient, even the 15L tetenal kit had been offered. Me, I was disapointed when the the 5L was discontinued, (as I was only mixing the ammount I was to use, and protecting the rest) that 5L was ideal for me.

Henning Serger said:
Shelf life of E6 chemicals can indeed be significantly extended easily and at negligible costs by using Protectan and glass bottles (after opening the original concentrates for the first processing). I am also using different sizes of bottles so that over the time the bottles are either completely filled, or only a small space must be filled with Protectan.

Sadly, this is not informed in the datasheet, to me this way would be useful for many users, that datasheet should instruct user how to get a better shelf life, in that way perhaps the 5L kit would had been more popular.

Henning Serger · Sep 20, 2020

138S said:
IMO the competition is not that direct, the Hunt is 6 bath and for amateur not automated processors (Jobo CPE, etc) the tetenal 3 bath is quite more convenient,

Well it is certainly a quite direct competion, as 5L kits are for more committed transparency film users, who are shooting at least 35 - 45 films p.a.. Most of these users have a JOBO processor or similar equipment, as they are really benefitting from that, no matter what chemistry is used.
The Fuji Hunt 5L kit offers perfect quality, best shelf life and the lowest costs per film.
The Tetenal 3-bath kit offers more convenience and a bit shorter overall processing time.
That are the trade-offs and customers have to set their priorities.

138S said:
Sadly, this is not informed in the datasheet, to me this way would be useful for many users, that datasheet should instruct user how to get a better shelf life, in that way perhaps the 5L kit would had been more popular.

You can say that about almost all developers from almost all manufacturers, including C-41 and BW. Compared to the original PE-Bottles in which most liquid concentrates are offered, using glass bottles instead of PE and Protectan protective gas always increases shelf-life after opening the orignal bottles.
But manufacturers can only give guarantees about the products leaving their house. They don't have any control of the user skills and the storing conditions at the user's home. Therefore they have generally to be careful with promises and guarantees and keep staying on a "more safe and conservative" side.
They don't know how good and precise a user may do the decanting into glass bottles, or if he even uses Protectan.
Film/chemistry distributors and labs have often told me about the experiences with their "DAUs" (dumbest assumable users), and as a normal thinking person you often are very surprised of what kind of strange things some people are doing.......

Best regards,
Henning

pentaxuser · Sep 20, 2020

I think the real winner here for Tetenal may be the tablets for C41 and E6. I don't do enough C41 to rid my mind of the dangers of wasting a lot of a kit designed for bigger volumes and I may not be the only one in this position. This kind of convenience offered by tablets and the peace of mind they bring has to give Tetenal the edge It will be a unique product in the C41 developer market, especially if the tablets can be used at a range of temperatures avoiding the need for 100 degrees Fahrenheit with almost no deviation

pentaxuser

138S · Sep 20, 2020

Henning Serger said:
But manufacturers can only give guarantees about the products leaving their house. They don't have any control of the user skills and the storing conditions at the user's home. Therefore they have generally to be careful with promises and guarantees and keep staying on a "more safe and conservative" side

Another choice would be serving the 5L kit in with each bottle split in two bottles of half the volume so this would extent the practical shelf life. Or offering a volume discount for purchasing two 2.5L kits at the same time. That >200% effective price increase that was suddenly experienced it was discouraging (IMO) to many. IMO an industrial priority should be sourcing materials at best possible price to help extent costumer base, looking more for long term profits than for short term cash, but of course every company is free to have the policy they prefer, while legal.

In that concern, (personally) I've always been pleased by the ilford industrial-commercial policy, fir example, I feel their management takes care of their customers, also taking a bet for the long term.

Henning Serger · Sep 20, 2020

138S said:
Another choice would be serving the 5L kit in with each bottle split in two bottles of half the volume so this would extent the practical shelf life.

That would increase the costs of the kit. Counterproductive, as you are already complaining about the price. More waste, too.

138S said:
IMO an industrial priority should be sourcing materials at best possible price to help extent costumer base,

All manufacturers are doing that of course. Cost management of raw materials is an implicitness for all of them.
But there are limits given by the needed quality. Otherwise you would loose customers because of quality problems.
And there are limits given by the current economic Covid-19 caused crisis, which is responsible for increasing prices in certain fields. For example shippings costs have significantly increased as a huge amount of air-cargo capacity is lost.

By the way, if we consider and calculate inflation, than photo chemistry for home users is cheaper compared to 25-30 years ago.

Best regards,
Henning

138S · Sep 20, 2020

Henning Serger said:
Cost management of raw materials is an implicitness for all of them.

In 2004, 100 liters of Kodak E-6 1st developer starter costed $7, so 1L costed $0.07. Of course the starter can be used one shot (or two shots)

First developer is almost made for free, most expensive component is the plastic bottle.

The most "exotic" component is CD-3, but it is under $20 per kg, retail price for a single 1kg, at 11gr per litre this would be $0.22 per litre

Raw chem market experimented a remarkable cost fall, today we have chinese raw chem of any purity level at prices really low prices.

Of course there are many factors in chem products, but what is the raw components they have record low prices.

halfaman · Sep 20, 2020

Tetenal Colortec kits prices nowsdays are prohibitive and not only in their online shop. For the price I paid in 2013 for a 5 liters C-41 kit today I get 2,5 liters, for the price of a 5 liters E-6 kit I CAN'T buy 2,5 liters. I don't believe that this incredible price increase has ocurred also in minilab chemistry. Sometimes I believe that perhaps this was an strategy to force amateurs to go back to commercial labs for color processing.

Today the only Tetenal color chemistry I buy is from the minilab line.

Henning Serger · Sep 21, 2020

138S said:
Of course there are many factors in chem products, but what is the raw components they have record low prices.

To the first part of your sentence:
Many different cost components, and that is important. Much much more is responsible for the final price than just raw components. And we've seen significant costs increases with some of these other factors in the last years.
To the second part of your sentence:
This is not true in general. Some photo chemistry raw materials have significantly increased in price in the last years.
If you think you could produce photo chemistry at the same quality, but at much lower prices than the established manufacturers: Start your own photo chemistry business. Good luck.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 21, 2020

halfaman said:
Tetenal Colortec kits prices nowsdays are prohibitive and not only in their online shop.

You are not forced to buy them. Fortunately we have a good working market for consumers with competion and several choices.

halfaman said:
Sometimes I believe that perhaps this was an strategy to force amateurs to go back to commercial labs for color processing.

Certainly not. Because such a "strategy" could only work (if at all) if you would have the biggest market share by far in the prof. lab chemistry business. But that is not the case with Tetenal.
They would push customers mainly to their competition if they would do that.

Best regards,
Henning

138S · Sep 21, 2020

Henning Serger said:
If you think you could produce photo chemistry at the same quality, but at much lower prices than the established manufacturers: Start your own photo chemistry business. Good luck.

In the darkroom photochem business, to produce at best cost, it is necessary to know very well what impurities can be allowed in the photo grade. Reagent grade chem (generally) is too expensive for darkroom photo products, many times purity is a very expensive feature in the ingredients.

Personally I mix part of my BW chemistry, at a fraction of the cost and same final results that cannot be distinguished from commercial stuff, but for example I use Xtol for convenience instead Mytol (shelf life...).

Regarding color chemistry, I find amateur kits are crazy expensive, I'm not understanding the pricing as I know what Labs were/are paying. Of course all depends on the satndard of life for country one stays, for example 80€ are a lot of money in Bangladesh as one has to work for two months to make that money, while in Switzerland people may pay more than that for an "acceptable" lunch. To me, $80 for a 2.5L E-6 kit is way too much, our solution has been purchasing (with a nice discount) 20L Pro chemistry to be shared by several mates, reducing cost to a fraction. Personally I was happy with the 60€ price of the 5L E-6, current 2.5L price made us search alternatives.

Henning Serger · Sep 21, 2020

138S said:
To me, $80 for a 2.5L E-6 kit is way too much,

Then simply use the alternative: The Fuji Hunt E6 5L kit can be bought at EU distributors for only 88€ to 109€.
You get perfect quality and very low costs per film.
Problem solved, no need for endless complaining about one single product.

And your comparisons of bulk chemistry prices to small home user kits are misleading, as
- bulk chemistry is produced in higher quantaties (economies of scale)
- bottling in many small bottles, and then packaging them to one kit is much more labor and cost intensive as producing bulk.

Best regards,
Henning

138S · Sep 21, 2020

Henning Serger said:
Then simply use the alternative: The Fuji Hunt E6 5L kit can be bought at EU distributors for only 88€ to 109€.

Yes, Maco Direct, 122€ ($143), VAT and shipping included

But this is 200% of the Tetenal 5L price, some 4 years ago, when the 5L was discontinued. Anyway we go to a 20L deal, if well negotiated this easily may cut 70% to 80% of the cost, compared to those 5L or 2.5L kits. We all recall how crazy cheap it resulted the 20L Tetenal E-6 kit.

Henning Serger said:
- bulk chemistry is produced in higher quantaties (economies of scale)

The 2.5L kit and the 20L kit comes from the same tank, same cost per volume

Henning Serger said:
- bottling in many small bottles, and then packaging them to one kit is much more labor and cost intensive as producing bulk.

Each plastic bottle is well under 1€, counting filling/labeling cost, probably under 5€ counting filling work and carton packaging, all but the chem itself, ex-factory.

Sal Santamaura · Sep 21, 2020

Henning, I'm surprised you still haven't concluded that the number of flat spots on your head is sufficient.

Henning Serger · Sep 22, 2020

138S said:
Yes, Maco Direct, 122€ ($143), VAT and shipping included
View attachment 255463

At first you should really learn the absolute basics: Doing an online research.
You can get the Fuji Hunt E6 5L kit by retrocamera.be for 87.95€.
And by Nordfoto.de for 109.52€.

I will not further comment on your other wrong assumptions. You've never been in a photo chemical factory ( I have). Nevertheless you are convinced that you can do it better than all the established manufacturers doing it for decades. Therefore you should be consequent: Stop wasting your time in forums, start your own business and demonstrate in real life that it can be done better.
Good luck.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 22, 2020

Sal Santamaura said:
Henning, I'm surprised you still haven't concluded that the number of flat spots on your head is sufficient.

.
Dear Sal, I am not writing for the 'undiscovered genuises' here who know all about things they have never done by themselves .
I just hope at least some of my info is helpful for all the other members. Nothing more, nothing less. I've got lots of feedback from members (also via conversations) saying that is the case, and asking me to continue.

Best regards,
Henning

Tom Kershaw · Sep 22, 2020

Henning Serger said:
You can get the Fuji Hunt E6 5L kit by retrocamera.be for 87.95€.

This price is very good. I've only seen the kit at around the Maco price before.

halfaman · Sep 22, 2020

Henning Serger said:
You are not forced to buy them. Fortunately we have a good working market for consumers with competion and several choices.

Yes, I know, but it puzzles me if this marketing strategy is really working. I appreciate Tetenal a lot for what it means for analog photograhpy and I would like they take all the correct decissions needed to keep the business running for many years. In this case I would not like to see it is a "declining sales -> increase price" circular strategy that usually leads nowhere.

dmtnkl · Sep 22, 2020

Henning Serger said:
The bigger and more attractive market gap is currently in the lower volume consumers group: Lots of new color reversal film shooters lately, but most of them are using not more than 10-15 films p.a. For this customer group the reintroduction of the former 1L kit would be perfect. Two years ago at Photokina (before their insolvency) Tetenal said they are thinking about it, offering the 1L kit again. Would make sense to reconsider it now.

I am using the small "magic box" kits right now. With each kit i wait until i have two rolls and i develop them over the same weekend. The cost is the same/cheaper compared to local labs, but i get perfect results and i don't have to deal with their inconsistencies any more. In this sense, this small kit was a game changer for me.

If i decide for a third roll per kit, i choose not to care too much about color accuracy at this point in the mixed chemistry's life and i go with a cross processed ektar 100 for interesting/unexpected results

Reintroducing the 1L kit would be perfect.

138S · Sep 22, 2020

Henning Serger said:
You've never been in a photo chemical factory ( I have).

If you have ti justufy your arguments in that way then they are quite weak .

Henning Serger said:
Nevertheless you are convinced that you can do it better than all the established manufacturers doing it for decades.

What I'm convinced, is that some manufacturers make a bet for the long term business, promoting the long market expansion and building a solid customer base, a nice example is ilford.

Instead some are focused to the short term cash, a sad example is Alaris, now for sell, while holding exclusive commercialization rights of the most prominent manufacturer, a really nasty situation.

Me, I want the best for the community, so I'm very convinced about what they want from manufacturers: that they make a bet for profits from the customer base expansion to secure future availability, instead squeezing semi-captive customers in a product line closing like policy.

This is my last 2016 5L purchase, VAT included, just before the 5L kill:

Now, same price the half the stuff:

To me the Tenenal chem price per roll has effectively doubled, this punishing the amateurs that require the 3 bath. I won't tell you the price I'll get the E-6 next time, but it will be 1/4 of that, fortunately I could I move to another solution.

If we want to sustain the film flourishment in the post-covid some industrial-commercial policies should be applied, because when excessive overpricing is in force then the enthusiast feels chiseled and gives up.

Still any manufacturer can do what he wants, of course.

Tom Kershaw said:
This price is very good. I've only seen the kit at around the Maco price before.

Sometimes chem (or film) is offered well cheaper because it's old it can expire soon, Henning points that example but he doesn't point that it may come with a short term expiration date.

Henning Serger · Sep 22, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
This price is very good. I've only seen the kit at around the Maco price before.

It is indeed, Tom.
By the way, the others have always been significantly cheaper than Maco.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 22, 2020

halfaman said:
Yes, I know, but it puzzles me if this marketing strategy is really working. I appreciate Tetenal a lot for what it means for analog photograhpy and I would like they take all the correct decissions needed to keep the business running for many years.

Understandable. If you as a customer have questions / issues, the best is to contact the manufacturer directly. Then they can listen. Discussions on social media or forums are a waste of time in that regard. Because meanwhile there are so much different platforms that it is absolutely impossible for companies to follow all of them. Especially for smaller companies.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 22, 2020

138S said:
Instead some are focused to the short term cash, a sad example is Alaris, now for sell, while holding exclusive commercialization rights of the most prominent manufacturer, a really nasty situation.

Alaris is not in general on sale, only parts may be offered for sale (no real definite / final / official statement about it so far).
So you think Alaris and Tetenal are making big profits because of their pricing policy. That is simply wrong. Period.
If you have issues with these companies, get in direct contact with them. Period. Complaining here is just a complete waste of time and energy, as neither Alaris nor Tetenal are active here.
And if you don't want to do that, just use alternative products. You are not forced to use them.

138S said:
Sometimes chem (or film) is offered well cheaper because it's old it can expire soon, Henning points that example but he doesn't point that it may come with a short term expiration date.

Nonsense. A friend of mine has just recently purchased a new 5L kit from retrocamera, no problems at all. Fine fresh chemistry.

Regards,
Henning

pentaxuser · Sep 22, 2020

dmtnkl said:
I am using the small "magic box" kits right now. With each kit i wait until i have two rolls and i develop them over the same weekend. The cost is the same/cheaper compared to local labs, but i get perfect results and i don't have to deal with their inconsistencies any more. In this sense, this small kit was a game changer for me.

If i decide for a third roll per kit, i choose not to care too much about color accuracy at this point in the mixed chemistry's life and i go with a cross processed ektar 100 for interesting/unexpected results

Reintroducing the 1L kit would be perfect.

It would sound from what Henning said that a third film is perfectly possible without compromises to quality. When you do a third film what have you found in the negatives of that third film that suggests it may not be OK or is it that your cross processing is a "better safe than sorry" approach in case there is a problem?. It might well be worth the risk to find out.

pentaxuser

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