Portable, reliable MF on a budget.

ChrisC said:

Though bulkier, a 645 SLR does seem to be perfect for me, and a Pentax 645 even with 2 lenses should be affordable. The other options are Bronica ETRSi's and Mamiya 645 Pro's, which while more expensive, do seem to have slightly more advanced metering systems from what I can gather, but I'm not convinced the price difference is worth it.

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I don't know what prices are locally for you but even with the higher prices lately for ETRSI you should be able to get a body,back and WLF for less money then the first Pentax 645 body and insert. It's only the metering prism that's expensive for most of the system cameras. If you can live without it then they can be pretty cheap. Plus the later Pentax 645 models are even higher.

ChrisC said:

I've come to the conclusion that battery dependency doesn't bother me, so long as the batteries aren't totally obscure

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What's obscure might be different in Nepal in the middle of the Himalayas. You might also want to consider likely weather conditions at the time of year you're going. My personal experience (Adirondacks in the winter) is that a solid mechanical camera can take more extreme conditions than electronics and batteries. You might also want to take into account the possibility of rough handling, being dropped, etc. en route.

Chris: you asked for another photo of the ETRs w/45-90 & a cd to compare size. I added a couple of photos today.

http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=7617534

Chris,

Lots of opinions and mine is just another so hope it helps and not confuses. I think your $600 budget gives you lots of choices for a body and lens (if you look carefully, you can even find a Hasselblad with 80mm. WLF and back in that price range) but it will be more difficult to get additional lenses in most systems for that budget. From prices I have seen, the lenses at the lower end of the price range seem to be the manual focus 645 lenses from Pentax, Mamiya and Bronica. (the RB 67 are cheap but I think that system fails on weight)

When researching when I bought, I found the total weight for body/lens/finder/back was pretty close for most 645 and 6x6 slr cameras - around 1100 - 1500 grams. The 645 systems are little lighter when you add a wide and a long lens but given what you have stated, probably not enough to tip the decision.

I ended up with a Pentax 645 (the old MF body and a 645N) I was going to sell the older body but when I found that they were selling for about $100, I kept it as a spare. If you shop carefully, you should be able to find one in that price range. An insert should be around $50, the MF 75mm is about $125 and the MF 45mm about $200.

The comment about cold and being knocked about has not proven to be an issue for me. I take my P645 skiing (about 30 days/year)and have had no problems. It is stuffed into my daypack that I have on all day and in Canada we get -25C days! You might consider the lithium AA batteries - much lighter than the alkaline, last much longer and better cold weather performance.

That said, I am sure that you can find similar prices and performance from the manual focus Bronica and Mamiya 645 systems.

If you want to slow down, you may want to reconsider the zoom - for me, using a zoom tends to encourage snapping away more than using primes do. The primes tend to be less expensive, have closer focus and are at least a stop faster.

Finally, if you can squeeze the budget to get a spare body, you can always leave it at base camp. Either that or a 35mm slr - while all the choices are rugged, there is always the chance accident that happens when you have no backup.

good luck shopping,
Martin

The Fuji 645zi, as someone else mentioned, seems like a good choice, if you can deal with its RF-ness and battery dependency.

Another thing to think about is that it takes 220 film. No matter what MF camera you choose, I'd seriously consider the ability to shoot 220. On a long trek where convenience is a big factor, loading film half as often, and carrying half as many rolls could be a big deal.

Don't know if you have had a look at the 645 threads recently but worth a look. You might already know this about the Pentax or not care anyway but it doesn't have a darkslide back which allows you with cameras such as Bronica and the later Mamiyas to change films mid roll and then swop back later. With a Pentax 645 you can of course change films mid roll but only by winding off the existing film first. A second insert already loaded with a different film is of course possible and probably desirable to save time but it still means wasting frames on the existing film.

Unless your mind is already made up and its MF come what may, you might want to look at the ongoing thread about print size in colour neg film. It would seem that up to 20x16 prints are perfectly possible in 35mm without graininess or loss of resolution. That's big by my standards.

I can't give you an opinion as I have never printed above 8x10 in colour or B&W but I have seen superb 12x16 colour prints of weddings that were taken on a F100. I thought they had to be MF but I asked the local wedding photog and she surprised me by saying she used a F100

pentaxuser

The F100 is a fabulous travel/hiking cam, favoured by the likes of Galen Rowell.

Once again a huge thanks to you guys for all the thoughts and suggestions. Thanks for those photos too jime11. It's so hard to even find photos of someone holding a 645 of any sort for an idea on size.

Some of you made me consider 35mm again but I just don't think I'll go there. With my friend snapping away on digital, I can focus on getting good shots rather than capturing everything, so I'm gonna go with the bigger format so slow me down just that little bit.

I've also decided that I really like the operation of dials for settings, and I'm not sure I could see myself enjoying the push button interface of the Pentax, so I'm gonna go with a Mamiya system. I'm just tossing up the idea of the 645 Pro or Pro TL now, and if I should bother getting a Power Drive II grip with it. I do want a metering viewfinder too just for ease of operation and an all in one package (don't really wanna have to hunt through my pack for a small light meter whenever I stop to shoot).

So thanks again. If you can help swing me between the Pro and Pro TL, and whether I need/should get a power drive grip that would be greatly appreciated. Other than that, I'm expecting to be even poorer in the near future

Pro or Pro TL... Do you want/need TTL flash control? That really is the only difference.

If you decide to get a winder, I would really suggest the one that takes the 2CR battery with belt drive. It is less than half the weight (with battery) than the 6AA powered winders. It also make less noise. Yes it does take a battery that is not as common as an AA cell, but you will want a manual winder anyway. In my mind I wouldn't go without a waist level finder too. It makes the camera much lighter, and will force you to slow down while you shoot. For the metered finder, the one with the adjustable diopter is next on my list.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Take a look at these low budget MF cameras!

The Mamiya 645 system is nice, but I sold mine because of the slow flash sync speed. I'd opt for a Bronica myself, if I were to shoot 645 again, because of the leaf shutters. It really is a nice format, and the results are strikingly better than you'd get with 35mm.

ChrisC said:

I've also decided that I really like the operation of dials for settings, and I'm not sure I could see myself enjoying the push button interface of the Pentax, so I'm gonna go with a Mamiya system. I'm just tossing up the idea of the 645 Pro or Pro TL now, and if I should bother getting a Power Drive II grip with it. I do want a metering viewfinder too just for ease of operation and an all in one package (don't really wanna have to hunt through my pack for a small light meter whenever I stop to shoot).

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The Pro is a good system. Between the M645 (early older non removable back) cameras and the Pro, there was a Super. If you find a steal on a Super, it's likely because the Supers had electronics problems. Good to steer clear here. Another thing about the Mamiya is that Lithium batteries were on the DO NOT USE list for Mamiya for a long time. I do not recall if Lithiums were approved for the Pro models. I used a couple of Pro's for a while and a bunch of the early M645 series. The M645J was a very limited camera... lowest price of the bunch, but it doesn't sound like you are going that way.

Also, on the good news side and to the best of my recollection, all the early lenses from the M645 and Super series fit the Pro with all functions operable up until the Autofocus Pro/TL. So you get mileage pricewise with the Pro body. I can't recall if that's the case with a TL.. never had one, but if it's autofocus you can't use the old lenses and lenses will become very pricey.
Another bit of information... the older film inserts from the M645 series will fit in the appropriate backs (120 or 220) for the Pro series. If you get the inserts with the boxes, you can carry any number of pre-loaded film inserts and insert them in the removable Pro backs. So, the saving there is that you don't have to have a complete back for every pre-load you want to carry.

There are some specialty backs... a couple are 35mm with a panoramic format and a standard 35mm format.

All in all, the Mamiya Pro 645 is a very versatile system.

I do have to say however, that I did change over to the Bronica ETRSi system for a very good reason. The Mamiya system is focal plane shutter and you have to have special lenses for flash sync to get a shutter lens. I have one leaf shutter lens left from my system.

The Bronica on the other hand tends to be less expensive, has a wide range of extremely good lenses. All lenses are leaf shutter, so flash sync at all speeds is incorporated in the lens system, not special lenses only. The back are wide ranging in format. The Bronica ETRSi is full featured, with mirror lockup. Power winders are available. The final bonus... the Bronica 645 system is less of a handfull then the Mamiya. The camera is noticably smaller and lighter.

Just some clarifications to the previous post from larsco2002.

I have three Mamiya 645 bodies - two "Super", and one "Pro".

The other advantage of the Pro Tl over the Pro is that it is likely to be newer, because it replaced the Pro in the line. Otherwise, the only functional difference as far as I am aware is that it offers Ttl flash capability.

The AF models have entirely different designations - there is no "Pro" in that line.

Here is a link to the page on the Mamiya USA website where downloadable manuals can be obtained:

http://www.mamiya.com/customer-service-instruction-manuals-downloads-645.html

They should answer the questions about the lithium batteries.

All the manual focus lenses work on all the cameras, but using them on the AF models is less convenient, particularly when using the meters in those cameras.

All the inserts for the manual focus bodies fit every body. The Super, the Pro and the Pro Tl all offer interchangeable backs, while the earlier bodies don't.

The backs for the AF cameras are not interchangeable with the manual focus backs, nor are the AF inserts interchangeable with the manual focus inserts.

Amongst the manual focus backs, there are none that are strictly 120 or strictly 220 backs - all the manual focus backs can take both 120 or 220 inserts, and therefore the medium format film length is determined by the insert, not the back (hint - if you want to pay less for a used back, with insert, buy one with a 220 insert).

The backs evolved slightly from the first Super backs to the Pro Tl backs - they are all compatible, but some find the newer backs to be better.

There are some accessories that aren't interchangeable between the Super and the Pro/Pro Tl, and it can be hard to identify which they are. I've only run into this directly when trying to get a left hand grip for my second Super body - I ended up with the connector that only works on the Pro body, and as a result had to buy one of those .

As to the reason to choose a Pro over a Super - age is one concern, but the other that I have heard more frequently is that the gearing is supposedly more robust in the Pro, and therefore less likely to fail, especially iif used with a power winder.

There is also a 645E which does not offer interchangeable backs or finders, but does offer a manual Rapid winder.

Hope this helps.

Matt

I kind of wish the thumb operated quick winder would work on the Super/Pro bodies. That would probably fill my needs for a right hand grip. I don't really care if it has a motor or not, but the right hand grip is kind of important to me. Wonder if I could make an adapter, may have to pick up the quick winder to find out.

Greg_E said:

I kind of wish the thumb operated quick winder would work on the Super/Pro bodies. That would probably fill my needs for a right hand grip. I don't really care if it has a motor or not, but the right hand grip is kind of important to me. Wonder if I could make an adapter, may have to pick up the quick winder to find out.

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Greg:

Ironically, the 645E will work with the old, clunky power winder designed for the older style bodies (1000s?).

One of the funniest threads I ever read was on Mamiya USA's old user group, where they learned this fact from the users posting.

I too would like to be able to use a quick finder with my Super or Pro. I doubt, however, that the geometry would permit an adaptation.

Matt

My thoughts? If you are going to 645 land, don't. Find a nice FM2 with a 35mm and perhaps 85mm lens setup. Of course, I love my 105mm but that's not everyones cup of tea. The quality difference isn't going to justify the weight and 120 film PITB factor. If you are not going 645, go rb67 ProS. 65mm and probably 127mm lens, WLF or magnifying viewfinder. You'll be able to shoot the 65mm hand held with a strap around your neck, the 127mm you will need either tripod or monopod. The 6x7 format will knock your socks off quality wise. You thnk you don't care about battery dependency, but a couple of hours in very cold temps can render your camera useless. The rb and the FM2 will keep on ticking no matter what.

If you really like 6x6, get either a Hassey or a C220. Two lens and a body won't weight you down. The 65mm Mamiya TLR lens is petty nice.

Get a good meter and lots of spare batteries for it.

tim in san jose

Matt,


I had a feeling that the quick winder would work on my 1000s and that might be a good choice to remove some of the weight of that system. And with that said, then maybe I have all I need to adapt the older winder to the new body, and in so doing adapt the quick winder to the new bodies.

Tim,

I don't agree. I have used quality 35mm cameras virtually all my life and I find a huge difference in quality between 35mm and 6X4.5. Basically, with equal attention to technique and getting the most out of both formats I find a huge advantage to 6X4.5cm over 35mm in terms of final image quality on the print, if the print is larger than 5X7 or 8X10.

Basically, you can enlarge a 6X4.5 cm negative about twice as large as a 35mm negative, with the same print quality. If that is not a big advantage, what is? In any print between 11X14 and 16X20 I find a very large advantage in image quality from 6X4.5cm


Sandy King

k_jupiter said:

My thoughts? If you are going to 645 land, don't. Find a nice FM2 with a 35mm and perhaps 85mm lens setup. Of course, I love my 105mm but that's not everyones cup of tea. The quality difference isn't going to justify the weight and 120 film PITB factor.

tim in san jose

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sanking said:

Tim,

I don't agree. I have used quality 35mm cameras virtually all my life and I find a huge difference in quality between 35mm and 6X4.5. Basically, with equal attention to technique and getting the most out of both formats I find a huge advantage to 6X4.5cm over 35mm in terms of final image quality on the print, if the print is larger than 5X7 or 8X10.

Basically, you can enlarge a 6X4.5 cm negative about twice as large as a 35mm negative, with the same print quality. If that is not a big advantage, what is? In any print between 11X14 and 16X20 I find a very large advantage in image quality from 6X4.5cm


Sandy King

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Sandy,

As always, I respect everything you say. It has been my experience that proper care and excellent equipment will give decent 11x14 prints in 135 land. My entire portfolio was shot with a FM2 and either a 35mm or 105mm lens. The jump from there to 645 didn't noticably improve my work, perhaps because lens quality (mamiya) resolution is just a bit less with most MF lens. Hence the move to 6x6 and 6x7 showed greater improvement and I found was well worth the slight incoveniences of traveling with a larger format camera. The jump to 645 wasn't worth it.

Difference of opinion, ya?

If I'm going MF, I am going BIG! *L*

By the same token, I have hiking trip to SE Utah this fall. What LF to bring? For the hikes, a 4x5 Speed? Still bring at least a 5x7 (or the 8x10) for keeping in the car? Decisions, decisions...



tim

Hi Tim,

My experience is that vibration from mirror slap and shutter release is a much bigger problem with MF than with 35mm. Before I bought the Mamiya 7II outfit I had a nice very late model Pentax 67II. In fact, I owned the two outfits long enough to do some testing. Believe me, at shutter speeds of less than 1/125 there was just no comparisoin between the resolution of the whole line of Mamiya 7II lenses versus the Pentax lenses. The Mamiya 7II would consistently deliver at least 25% more resolution in lines/mm on film than the Pentax 67II.

Later I talked about this with a professional printer, and his comment was that the Pentax 67II was legend for smoothing faces, i.e. softening the image, when used at slow shutter speeds without flash, either on or off the tripod.

The rangefinder cameras that I use (Mamiya 7II, Fuji GW690II and Fuji GA645Zi) give exceptional resolution at slow shutter speeds, whether hand held or used on the tripod.

Sandy King

k_jupiter said:

Sandy,

As always, I respect everything you say. It has been my experience that proper care and excellent equipment will give decent 11x14 prints in 135 land. My entire portfolio was shot with a FM2 and either a 35mm or 105mm lens. The jump from there to 645 didn't noticably improve my work, perhaps because lens quality (mamiya) resolution is just a bit less with most MF lens. Hence the move to 6x6 and 6x7 showed greater improvement and I found was well worth the slight incoveniences of traveling with a larger format camera. The jump to 645 wasn't worth it.

Difference of opinion, ya?

If I'm going MF, I am going BIG! *L*

By the same token, I have hiking trip to SE Utah this fall. What LF to bring? For the hikes, a 4x5 Speed? Still bring at least a 5x7 (or the 8x10) for keeping in the car? Decisions, decisions...



tim

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Someday I'll give MF range finders a try. Once I get bored with the 8x10 Deardorff. Like that's ever going to happen. In the meantime, I'll use my rb67 on a tripod with mirror lockup.

tim in san jose