Pop Quiz: A train is about to hit someone and you have your camera. What do you do?

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 6, 2012

What I've heard of the incident on the radio is that
A: Mr. Han was intoxicated
B: he and the man who pushed him were involved in a loud altercation with profanities exchanged
C: Mr. Han MAY have been partially responsible for initiating the altercation (this in no way justifies what happened, but merely goes to the state of mind of any witnesses)

Given these circumstances, were I a witness, my instinct would be to A: get away from those arguing before the push occurred, and B: look for a stationmaster or transit cop to help or to try and signal the train. trying to lift someone drunk and belligerent up off the tracks is risking being pulled down yourself. And I don't blame people for being too far away to help. The whole thing transpired in a span of less than 20 seconds. As someone who rides public transit here in DC, my instinct be it on the platform, in a bus, or on the station platform is to move away from anyone exhibiting drunken and/or violent behavior, as quickly as possible, so hopefully there is no incident to begin with. I can better help someone by remaining safe myself and then calling and/or directing first responders than if I step in to a fight. I think that's true for most people.

Sirius Glass · Dec 6, 2012

mark said:
Did they catch the guy that pushed him?

Yes
[h=1]Suspect in deadly New York City subway push blames victim[/h]http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/06/15727169-suspect-in-deadly-new-york-city-subway-push-blames-victim?lite

StoneNYC · Dec 6, 2012

From that article it sounds like there is proof that the pusher wasn't really at fair and was being harassed by Han, also, the family statements make you think they weren't surprised nor angry at the pusher or cameraman so he probably wasn't a very good guy, she may have loved him but didn't seem very broken up about it.

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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batwister · Dec 6, 2012

They were arguing in the video and it's clear that Han isn't getting the message. It appears as if he was out for a confrontation, maybe alcohol fueled, but who knows.

Sirius Glass · Dec 6, 2012

batwister said:
They were arguing in the video and it's clear that Han isn't getting the message. It appears as if he was out for a confrontation, maybe alcohol fueled, but who knows.

As usual the innocent and the legally innocent will be pilloried, whipped, shot, hung, drawn and quartered by the press and the public. But is does sell newspapers and gets great attention for the websites that capitalize on it.

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 6, 2012

The photo is effective, because it enacts a fear that every New Yorker has entertained at some point, regardless of the incident that occasioned it.

cepwin · Dec 6, 2012

We'll never know what he could have done. If I could reasonably save the life without it being a suicide act that's the priority. If you give him the benefit of the doubt, that he couldn't saved the guy then at least his pictures could hopefully help authorities to catch the killer. There was a good point made about the mentally ill. Whenever we've had mass shootings the kneejerk reaction is to call for gun control. It often turns out there were red flags about the individual that were ignored or pushed aside for political correctness reasons. Point is, if you can save a life that's first priority (in Judaism it's called Pikuach Nefesh - the principle that saving a life overrides everything) but if you can't do that, providing key evidence to the police to catch the murderer is at least something one can do.

mark · Dec 7, 2012

Whether the guy was drunk, or just an ass you don't push him in front of a train.

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2012

mark said:
Whether the guy was drunk, or just an ass you don't push him in front of a train.

Not for us to decide, perhap to be decided in court:

Was he pushed off the platform intentionally? or
Was he pushed away in defense and as a result fell off the platform?

Alexis M · Dec 7, 2012

If you watch without helping in a situation like that, you are a gutless coward. No excuses will help you, there are none. Put your tail between your legs, bow your head and never speak again…As for that wimp of a photographer, I would probably react the same way towards him as Pacino did towards spacey in Glengarry Glenn Ross…I did the same thing once when I was a young teen, I never forget how shameful It felt afterwards…ever since I ALWAYS help, even in violent situations that can cause me injury, I never want to feel that shame again.

PentaxBronica · Dec 7, 2012

The obvious question is whether you're close enough to grab them.

I definitely wouldn't take the photo. I'd be too busy employing some robust Anglo-Saxon terms in an effort to get them to snap out of it and get off the track!

Worker 11811 · Dec 7, 2012

PentaxBronica said:
The obvious question is whether you're close enough to grab them.

I definitely wouldn't take the photo. I'd be too busy employing some robust Anglo-Saxon terms in an effort to get them to snap out of it and get off the track!

Or, if what I saw in the photo (posted on that website) was accurate, running down toward the edge of the platform, waving my arms and pointing at the guy trying to get the conductor to stop the train.

How is flashing your camera at the conductor supposed to warn him of an impending accident?

First, there is no way for the conductor to make the connection between a flashing camera and a human obstruction on the track.

Second, and more importantly, the flash of the camera probably distracted the driver's attention. He might not have seen the man in front of him because he was too busy looking at some yahoo taking pictures.

So, in theory, it might be said that the photographer's actions contributed to the man's death.

bobwysiwyg · Dec 7, 2012

Strictly speculation on my part, but I saw "the" photo and something about it did not seem to support the photographer's claim he was too far away and twenty seconds was insufficient to help. The take angle was too steep suggesting he was pretty close and shooting downward. Had it been a shallower angle, it would still have had to been a bit of a tele zoom (unless the photo published was cropped and blown up). I assume the pic was digital, the data captured with each image might be telling.

StoneNYC · Dec 8, 2012

Not that I'm defending anyone, but as I said and posted a picture (which a cleaned up version is now in my gallery) the man was drunk and belligerent and harassing the pusher, sure he shouldn't have pushed him INTO the tracks, but he may have just been frightened and pushed him away and the drunk stumbling fool lost his footing. Also if the man hadn't been drunk he probably would have known that he could simply have walked between the posts and gone to the other side of the track or stood between the posts and been perfectly safe. Reading between the lines of the interview of the girl (daughter/wife?) you can infer that he was probably not a nice man and she didn't seem too surprised that he was drunk, angry, and harassing someone else. I just think we are putting entirely too much blame on everyone else and no blame on the "victim" who was only a victim of his own stupidity and lack of self control.

I do agree that if given time, I would have instructed the guy to walk to the other side of the track, but I would not have tried to help him out, especially seeing how drunk he was on the video recorded on the cell phone, I would be scared he would pull me in with him (which is what you are taught in life saving class NOT to do... which I have taken) you don't let the frantic person near you, you stay just out of reach and guide them to safety, or they will inevitably end up dragging you down with them and you both die.

I know people are saying "I would have helped" but I think if you were actually in a situation like that, you would probably act differently, it's easy to say you're a hero, but much harder to take action when there's a train coming at you... especially true apparently if you're drunk..

(no I'm not a bad guy, I just have been in situations where I would have been dead if I "acted a fool") ~"That's Just My Opinion, I Could be Wrong" - Dennis Miller

Old-N-Feeble · Dec 8, 2012

I think I'm going to be sick. DROP THE FRIGGIN' CAMERA AND BE HUMAN!!

pbromaghin · Dec 8, 2012

I will not criticize this guy. In a situation like this there is either no decision or a "no" decision.

What I mean is that the time I saved a man from a burning car, I was up and running to it before I realized what was even happening and "oh-shit-what-am-I-doing" popped into my head only while dragging him across the ground. But then 2 other times (one just a couple weeks ago), when I witnessed motorcyclists sliding and rolling across the pavement, I hung back and dialed 911.

You never know how you will react until you do.

StoneNYC · Dec 8, 2012

pbromaghin said:
I will not criticize this guy. In a situation like this there is either no decision or a "no" decision.

What I mean is that the time I saved a man from a burning car, I was up and running to it before I realized what was even happening and "oh-shit-what-am-I-doing" popped into my head only while dragging him across the ground. But then 2 other times (one just a couple weeks ago), when I witnessed motorcyclists sliding and rolling across the pavement, I hung back and dialed 911.

You never know how you will react until you do.

What he/she said...

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Sirius Glass · Dec 8, 2012

pbromaghin said:
You never know how you will react until you do.

That is exactly the point that the arm chair or computer chair critics do not understand.

cliveh · Dec 8, 2012

This phenomena is also recorded by quite famous photographers and I may be wrong about this, but I understand that after Weegee took this picture

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37775831@N02/3945466703/

the drunk walked into the road and was killed, which Weegee recorded as a series of pictures. Why did he not try to help the poor guy?

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 8, 2012

Apparently the photo inspired this woman to save two men from an oncoming train:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/heroic-straphanger-saves-oncoming-subway-train-article-1.1215851

The statistic advertised in the subway is that 150-some people are struck by trains annually and 40-some are killed. So whether the photographer could have saved the guy who fell in the tracks or not, if the photo raises awareness about the hazards of the subway and inspires people to be aware of their surroundings and to help people in danger, then maybe it does more good than harm.

StoneNYC · Dec 8, 2012

David A. Goldfarb said:
Apparently the photo inspired this woman to save two men from an oncoming train:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/heroic-straphanger-saves-oncoming-subway-train-article-1.1215851

The statistic advertised in the subway is that 150-some people are struck by trains annually and 40-some are killed. So whether the photographer could have saved the guy who fell in the tracks or not, if the photo raises awareness about the hazards of the subway and inspires people to be aware of their surroundings and to help people in danger, then maybe it does more good than harm.

Well at least she tried to help, the guy who jumped into the tracks is also a hero even if it took some urging. Lol

All's well that ends well...

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pbromaghin · Dec 9, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
That is exactly the point that the arm chair or computer chair critics do not understand.

You're right, Sirius. With my experience, this whole thread pisses me off. Until you've been there, you have no idea. I've been a hero. I've been a chump. I suggest people read "The Red Badge of Courage".

Old-N-Feeble · Dec 9, 2012

pbromaghin said:
I will not criticize this guy. In a situation like this there is either no decision or a "no" decision.

What I mean is that the time I saved a man from a burning car, I was up and running to it before I realized what was even happening and "oh-shit-what-am-I-doing" popped into my head only while dragging him across the ground. But then 2 other times (one just a couple weeks ago), when I witnessed motorcyclists sliding and rolling across the pavement, I hung back and dialed 911.

You never know how you will react until you do.

He was cognizant enough to "decide" to photograph a certain death. He was thinking well enough and made his "decision". And he got the photo and the recognition for it. The very idea of even "thinking" between taken a photo or saving a person's life is indicative of our society today. The photographer claimed he didn't have time to get there anyway?? BS!! He could have at least TRIED without any real danger to his own safety. But, no, he "decided" to take a photo instead. Snap decision or not... it was WRONG!!

Old-N-Feeble · Dec 9, 2012

cliveh said:
This phenomena is also recorded by quite famous photographers and I may be wrong about this, but I understand that after Weegee took this picture

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37775831@N02/3945466703/

the drunk walked into the road and was killed, which Weegee recorded as a series of pictures. Why did he not try to help the poor guy?

The drunk wasn't in inevitable danger... about to immediately killed. There's a huge difference. Even if the man was later struck by a car, whether or not Weegee would have tried to help the man if he saw it coming is unknown. So it's not a comparable image.

michaelbsc · Dec 9, 2012

Old-N-Feeble said:
I think I'm going to be sick. DROP THE FRIGGIN' CAMERA AND BE HUMAN!!

+1

Pop Quiz: A train is about to hit someone and you have your camera. What do you do?

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