Pop Quiz: A train is about to hit someone and you have your camera. What do you do?

Dave in Kansas · Dec 5, 2012

There was a short interview with the photographer this morning on the national news. He indicated that he was not strong enough to pull the man back up onto the platform. Perhaps, but you would think most people would try.

However, events like this may unfold very quickly, and for many people there is a lag time for the brain to process the information before any action can be taken. It is much easier to analyze an event afterwards that you did not witness first hand and say "I would have done such and such."

Dave

Benoît99 · Dec 5, 2012

The man would still be alive if the architects and engineers who built the N.Y. Subway had done it right. In the Stockholm, Sweden subway, there is a one-meter space next to the track that extends under the platform, providing refuge for anyone who falls off the platform onto the tracks.

Frankly, it's surprising the New York subway has not already been successfully sued for such an obvious and deadly design flaw.

tkamiya · Dec 5, 2012

Bob-D659 said:
it might have been too gory for the "politically correct" in north america.

I wouldn't term that as an issue of political correctness. That's just wrong, I think.

removed account4 · Dec 5, 2012

back in 1986 i was in the boston subway, the redline at park street.
there is an island in the middle and a train on either side.
i had a camera with me, doing a little street ( well underground ) stuff
and a drunk fell down the stairs and pushed someone into the tracks
he missed the 3rd rail but there was a train coming .. i dropped my camera and ran to help
the guy ... a t policeman had already jumped in the tracks and pulled the person out ...

i can't imagine how a photographer or anyone wouldn't jump to help someone in distress
what a lame world we live in ..

batwister · Dec 5, 2012

Benoît99 said:
The man would still be alive if the architects and engineers who built the N.Y. Subway had done it right. In the Stockholm, Sweden subway, there is a one-meter space next to the track that extends under the platform, providing refuge for anyone who falls off the platform onto the tracks.

Frankly, it's surprising the New York subway has not already been successfully sued for such an obvious and deadly design flaw.

That people's lives are in the hands of dubious onlookers (or voyeurs) as soon as they're down there - whether injured or not - is ludicrous. It's amazing that there isn't some kind of foothold on the wall, which was the first thing I thought when looking at the photo, as the man clearly has some strength. It's certainly not the classic image of a helpless dame tied to the tracks.

Just to add a strange thought. We're clearly so desensitised to such images, that when reality happens, we're stifled in our anticipation of an image - the information. I don't think it's merely shock or cowardice that nobody did anything, it's that we're vegetables, waiting to be stimulated. I think we become cameras in those situations, unconsciously holding still, waiting for something to click. Having a camera just makes you more conscious of the 'picture' unfolding, but never the reality. We're too detached to accept something like that as a tangible reality, in our culture. Perhaps it's the people who don't watch TV who save the day, because all the people who do are so used to waiting for the hero to arrive!

Darkroom317 · Dec 5, 2012

People expect other people to do something. I don't think it has to do with being desensitized to these images otherwise there wouldn't be such a backlash against it being published.

Classic case of bystander effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

batwister · Dec 5, 2012

Darkroom317 said:
People expect other people to do something. I don't think it has to do with being desensitized to these images otherwise there wouldn't be such a backlash against it being published.

Classic case of bystander effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

I'd think the reason for the backlash might be that it happened in such a familiar place. Collective guilt?

The bystander effect suggests that the more people, the less likely someone will intervene, but doesn't really imply that this might be because they become, in effect, an 'audience' like I suggested. There is the 'audience effect', which is something quite different. But, I've strayed well out of my depth quite quickly here.

removed account4 · Dec 5, 2012

people don't get involved for fear of being involved in a law suit if
things go south. i have heard of this in instances of heart attachs,
car crashes and tons of other things. it is still as lame as it gets.

Ian David · Dec 5, 2012

batwister said:
But, I've strayed well out of my depth quite quickly here.

Yes.

batwister · Dec 5, 2012

Ian David said:
A theory arising out of personal experience? Or just speculative nonsense?

You're right, I went a little too far.

Colin Corneau · Dec 5, 2012

The photographer's side of the issue - I'm inclined to believe him.

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/...ime-i-close-my-eyes-i-see-the-image-of-death/

In the collective gang-tackling of the photographer, what's missed are the truly salient points:

•it was the choice of the editors, not the photographer, to run the picture. And let's not forget it was also their choice to pick the frame that they did AND their voluntary choice to write the tasteless headline that went with the image. Frankly that offended me more than the image.

•Our society (I include Canada in this just as much as the US) routinely ignores the mentally ill and lets them roam free under the guise of "rights". Let's be frank - it's all about saving money, on the backs of those too vulnerable to defend themselves. Plenty of money for bureaucrats and new offices and an army of middle managers...nothing to help these people either get the help they need or have a place they can be helped.
This man was killed as a direct result of the trend of de-institutionalization. THAT'S far more offensive than a photograph and frankly I hope everyone who thinks the current system is just fine takes a long look at that photograph (preferably a-la Clockwork Orange techniques).

• Death is a part of life and this is far from the first photograph (or last) to portray that.

Felinik · Dec 5, 2012

A by far more interesting question in this story is, was the entire platform empty??? Was there not a single person who was able to reach out a hand or two to help the victim to get up?

Silly to talk about the photographer, who (judging by the crappy image quality, cropped hard probably) seems to have been too far away to be able to get to the victim in time before the train would strike anyway....

StoneNYC · Dec 5, 2012

Remember also that you had to be there.

I've seen a person die in front of me, sometimes you just to stiff, it's the time between the fight or flight, it's the brain's gears stuck, many of the people were probably stuck there. Also remember its like a drowning person, you try to help them and in their panic they pull you down with them, reaching out to someone stuck in a hole they might do the same thing, I want to be a hero and saver of lives, but I'm not going to risk dying either.

It's a hard choice compounded by that stuck between choices thing a brain often has in a situation like that.

As far as the photographer, who knows, but you're trained as a photojournalist to shoot first... That's your habit, it's hard to break that when reality happens.

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Chuck_P · Dec 5, 2012

Without reading through all the responses, no need to really, put the camera down, help save a life.......

StoneNYC · Dec 5, 2012

After looking at the article I realize that particular track is double sided and all the victim had to do was walk to the other side, there was no reason he couldn't I've been at that stop many times.

Whether in panic the man didn't realize that, he still could have saved himself easily.

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Curt · Dec 5, 2012

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genoveses

This article is about the psychological phenomenon. For the bystander effect in radiobiology, see Bystander effect (radiobiology).
The bystander effect or Genovese syndrome is a social psychological phenomenon that refers to cases where individuals do not offer any means of help in an emergency situation to the victim when other people are present. The probability of help has often appeared to be inversely related to the number of bystanders; in other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help. The mere presence of other bystanders greatly decreases intervention. In general, this is believed to happen because as the number of bystanders increases, any given bystander is less likely to notice the situation, interpret the incident as a problem, and less likely to assume responsibility for taking action.

StoneNYC · Dec 6, 2012

This is what it looks like from the other side of the track in a similar station in NYC...

Mind the crappy image it was an experimental roll of 70mm GAF aerial film that expired in 1967, it shoots fairly well for its age but it was low light long exposure in the subway type deal ya know...followed by the fact I didn't fix it for long enough apparently and since has darkened, I went to scan it (tonight) and discovered this, so spent this gap in time to re-fix all 15 feet in single image clippings... Fun.....

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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rcam72 · Dec 6, 2012

Is Abbasi getting an unfair amount of criticism?
There were other people there.
Who knows how far away he really was.
Could he have done anything if he didn't take the photo.
How much time did he have.
There are other circumstances that could have contributed to his inaction. But it wasn't really inaction. He did do something. He took a picture. A previous poster called it a crappy image. I have to disagree with that opinion or at least say it isn't that bad. If it were crappy we would have an easier time believing his story that it was an incidental result of his trying to get the driver's attention. I think the composition is what gets me the most even though that could easily have been adjusted in post. It gives the impression that there was deliberate thought put into making the image. And I think that is where the criticism is coming from. I guess the idea is that, unlike the other people there, his brain didn't lock up. I also think he's taking a lot of heat as a result of the headline the paper used. "How can someone stand there and take a picture?" was something that crossed my mind when I first saw it. I didn't think of the possible circumstances surrounding the tragedy and I have to wonder why is it so easy to presume that he could have done something?

rcam72 · Dec 6, 2012

Benoît99 said:
The man would still be alive if the architects and engineers who built the N.Y. Subway had done it right. In the Stockholm, Sweden subway, there is a one-meter space next to the track that extends under the platform, providing refuge for anyone who falls off the platform onto the tracks.

Frankly, it's surprising the New York subway has not already been successfully sued for such an obvious and deadly design flaw.

There is a space under the platforms. When I used to ride the subway on a daily basis I considered crawling under the platform as the first option in case I ever found myself down there when a train was coming. I guess I'm just repeating StoneNYC in saying that Mr. Han had other options besides climbing back on the platform. I'm not trying to implicate Mr. Han in his own death, just correcting the quoted post. Everyone has a plan until there's a train heading at them.

Newt_on_Swings · Dec 6, 2012

There is usually a space under the platform for someone to hide under, but this is not always the case and depends on the station. A notable one would be 14th st union sq where the platform is mechanized and slides out at certain points on the curved station track and therefore can't accommodate a space.

Other stations have slots built into the walls to fit a grown man easily if you stand up and lean into them. I have seen workers use them in this capacity.

There is however a channel cut into the entire length of the track of every station large enough for a man to lie down completely and not be hit if you go into a prone superman state and let the train pass over.

The easiest would be just to walk over to the otherside if it was a double sided track station. There are stairs at each end of the platforms to walk up behind the swinging barriers.

I've been down on NYC tracks before and it is a little bit of a jump and a push to get back up. For comparison the T in Boston is barely a step high in many stations.

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 6, 2012

There is also an electrified shoe on both sides of the train, even though the electrified rail is on the inside, so the cars can move between tracks and change direction without having to be rotated, so it isn't necessarily safe to be in the space between the track and the platform, in stations where there seems to be adequate clearance.

removed account4 · Dec 6, 2012

Newt_on_Swings said:
I've been down on NYC tracks before and it is a little bit of a jump and a push to get back up. For comparison the T in Boston is barely a step high in many stations.

you are right newt_on _swings ..
i was on the redline platform .. and it was a good 5-6 foot drop
other places on the red line ( charles ) not even a step since it is on a bridge
but kendal, central harvard, porter, davis and aelwife are all a 5-6' drop ( sometimes more ! )

i guess people feel inadequate or afraid for their life so they don't help. i am trained in lifesaving/first aid
emergency preparedness and survival from an early age so i am kind of prepared to help if i can ...
i feel sorry for anyone these days who gets hurt and a crowd just watches ... or ignores.

i had a friend who witnessed a car wreck back maybe 25 years ago. he pulled over, pulled the guy out of the wreck
and saved his life ..... and people said " wasn't he worried about getting aids or hep. or hurt " he kind of shook his head
and said if he didn't do what he did, the guy would have been dead and he would have been one of the lame people who just pass by.

oh well, people gotta do what they gotta do ..

c.d.ewen · Dec 6, 2012

As David points out, the space under the platform is not necessarily safe. The trough between the tracks often has debris and/or some water in it, and appears quite narrow. To get in between the two sets of tracks involves stepping over the electrified third rail. None of these possible escapes would be inviting to someone in imminent mortal danger. Attempting to get back onto the platform would have been obvious split-second choice.

I heard Mr. Abbasi's explanation of inaction on the local news radio. He said he had defensively put his back up against a wall, as the pusher was running directly towards him. He seemed to indicate that he was operating the camera not to take pictures, but to cause the flash to repeatedly fire and alert the train's motorman of the situation.

Although young at the time, I recall the Kitty Genovese incident, which evolved over a period of time during which numerous people ignored cries for help, rather than make an anonymous phone call. Given our current culture, I'd like to think it wouldn't happen again, but then, I'd like to think I'd have helped Mr Han, rather than stand frozen, thinking, 'Somebody should help than man'. Who knows?

Charley

mark · Dec 6, 2012

Did they catch the guy that pushed him?

JBrunner · Dec 6, 2012

Personally I find it fascinating that the dialog of this incedent focuses on a man who may or may not have been in a position to help (we will never know), and not on the person who pushed him. That would be the person who actually murdered him in cold blood.

Pop Quiz: A train is about to hit someone and you have your camera. What do you do?

Dave in Kansas

Benoît99

tkamiya

removed account4

batwister

Darkroom317

batwister

removed account4

Ian David

batwister

Colin Corneau

Felinik

StoneNYC

Chuck_P

StoneNYC

Curt

StoneNYC

rcam72

rcam72

Newt_on_Swings

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

removed account4

c.d.ewen

mark

JBrunner

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Pop Quiz: A train is about to hit someone and you have your camera. What do you do?

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