POP (Printing out paper)

Anton Lukoszevieze · Mar 25, 2009

Sanders,

I cannot say if this process would work. But, it is a very easy process to test. Some people think one has to have a very contrasty neg. for salt prints, I don't entirely agree, it depends on the subject, etc. I don't intensify my negs. either, which some people believe is necessary for wet-plate negs.

What size are your negs? Small negs. don't work so well for alt. processes, 5x4, 5x7, etc. and up is best.

So, I suggest you try making a salt print, it is fun!

RobertP · Mar 25, 2009

Anton, First let me say that salts prints can be very beautiful. And I would never advocate one process over another because it is all subjective. I also work in wet plate collodion and mostly print in albumen so I can only tell you what I see when comparing a salt print side by side with an albumen print. They are really two quite different methods. I also print with pt/pd using ULF film negatives. The reason I mention pt/pd is because both pt/pd and salt prints are processes that are actually absorbed into the fibers of the paper. Now an albumen print is more on the surface because the albumen acts as a substrate for the silver nitrate. This is why when you compare most salt prints to albumen prints the salt print will seem somewhat dull and won't appear to hold as much fine detail as the albumen. And that is fine if that is the look your after and a well made salt print holds loads of detail. I'm just giving you my personal experience when doing a comparison. Now waxing a salt print will help with the luminance but it won't increase detail and it looks totally different than albumen because it is a coating over the image as compared to a substrate that the image is formed on. With that said, I think both salt and albumen prints are both beautiful processes and I love them both. Personally I prefer pt/pd over most other process and it is also limited in what it will resolve, but that doesn't make it any less appealing. I would choose it over a silver gel almost everytime and the silver print would probably hold much more detail. Like I said its all subjective.

Anton Lukoszevieze · Mar 25, 2009

Thats cool Robert, thank you for this info. I agree, it is subjective. I have not worked with plt/pld processes at all, and would probably love that too. I understand the difference between salt and albumen prints, its good to hear your thoughts.

Martin Reed · May 21, 2009

POP from enlarging paper?

Kirk Keyes said:
Has anyone tried soaking regular paper with citric or acetic acid or the sodium salts of these acids? ....

I've recently tried putting Ilford Galerie through a silver nitrate solution, and it certainly takes it well towards POP behaviour. Galerie gives a weak image with printing out anyway, but this is blueish. After the silver nitrate treatment the colour is POP purple, and much stronger. I used a 2% solution, soaked for 5 minutes, rinsed briefly then air dried. Has anyone else tried this?

Trevor Crone · May 21, 2009

Martin Reed said:
I've recently tried putting Ilford Galerie through a silver nitrate solution, and it certainly takes it well towards POP behaviour. Galerie gives a weak image with printing out anyway, but this is blueish. After the silver nitrate treatment the colour is POP purple, and much stronger. I used a 2% solution, soaked for 5 minutes, rinsed briefly then air dried. Has anyone else tried this?

No. but it certainly sounds interesting Martin.

Have you tried gold toning it? If so what was the colour like?

Martin Reed · May 21, 2009

It was a repeat of an experiment I did years ago, and it worked just the same then. I haven't tried fixing or toning, that was as far as I got, but it seems enough to be worth further experimentation. The density wasn't as high or the result as rich as the Kentmere POP, but it was quite fast, and on the reasonably bright day I tried it, got to it's full potential density in about 2-3 minutes.

In the prolonged absence of any real POP it's got to be worth more testing, maybe it could be tweaked to provide a real substitute?

Allen Friday · May 21, 2009

I knew I kept that post it note around for a reason.

In the apug galleries, look up the work of lasse Mellberg. (Do a search by name in the gallery.) In 2002, he posted a number of photos created using enlarging paper soaked in a solution to make them POP. The first photo in his gallery is labeled "August 2002" and is of a flower taken in his kitchen. Under the comments to that photo, he states that he used Kodak Medalist Paper soaked in a 10% sodium nitrite solution and dried, then used as POP after that. The prints are very nice.

I thought the process was interesting, so I put a post it note about it on my wall, and haven't had time to try it. The note was on my wall for several years.

You might try contacting Lasse directly to find out his methods. I had never heard of sodium nitrite being used for photographic purposes. I assume he had the correct chemical, however. Perhaps some of the chemistry experts here on Apug could shed light on how this works.

ntenny · May 22, 2009

I thought the bit about sodium nitrite was interesting, so I googled it a bit and found that there may be some precedent. The American Chemical Society's web site seems to have publications whose contents show up on Google, but that can't actually be viewed in their entirety, and one of these came up in my search:

The Photographic Plate VIII. Wilder D. Bancroft. J. Phys. Chem., 1912, 16 (2), 89-125

The hit was on the sentence "Moistening the photobromide film with sodium nitrite also causes a rapid and intense darkening in the light." I must say that sounds like P.O.P. to me, but I can't get Google to spit out enough context to be helpful.

Presumably anyone with access to a university library can turn up the paper and find out if there are any more details. (I wonder how to fix such prints, for instance.)

-NT

Dwane · May 25, 2009

You might want to look at this earlier posting -

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Allen Friday said:
I knew I kept that post it note around for a reason.

In the apug galleries, look up the work of lasse Mellberg. (Do a search by name in the gallery.) In 2002, he posted a number of photos created using enlarging paper soaked in a solution to make them POP. The first photo in his gallery is labeled "August 2002" and is of a flower taken in his kitchen. Under the comments to that photo, he states that he used Kodak Medalist Paper soaked in a 10% sodium nitrite solution and dried, then used as POP after that. The prints are very nice.

I thought the process was interesting, so I put a post it note about it on my wall, and haven't had time to try it. The note was on my wall for several years.

You might try contacting Lasse directly to find out his methods. I had never heard of sodium nitrite being used for photographic purposes. I assume he had the correct chemical, however. Perhaps some of the chemistry experts here on Apug could shed light on how this works.

Martin Reed · May 27, 2009

Galerie POP

Here are links to scans of the test prints;

[links removed while technical problems being resolved]

Ian Grant · May 27, 2009

Those links don't work Martin

Ian

Martin Reed · May 27, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Those links don't work Martin

Ian

Intense work is going on amongst the backroom boffins here - some problem with the website we're lodging the files on. Normal service resumed asap.

[later]

Ok, here they are;

Straight print using Galerie as POP
Dead Link Removed

Galerie as POP with 5 mins soak in 2% silver nitrate, rinsed & dried
Dead Link Removed

I didn't use much agitation - the marks at the edge seem to indicate this is a bit critical.

Jerevan · May 27, 2009

The chemical options so far for making a POP from a normal paper seems to be:

10% sodium nitrite
10% potassium nitrate
2% silver nitrate
3% potassium iodide with development in metol/sodium sulfite
Citric acid or Sodium citrate

Any more options?

CBG · May 27, 2009

Fascinating stuff. I will be interested in further results. Thanks!

Kirk Keyes · May 27, 2009

Martin -

Thanks for reporting your results on my suggested test!

Dwane · May 27, 2009

Here is my example - Kodak PolyContrast (exp 1967) treated with 10% potassium nitrate and toned with 10% KRST.

ntenny · May 27, 2009

Dwane, I like that one a lot! What was the colour like before toning?

-NT

Stephen Frizza · May 27, 2009

Dwane said:
Here is my example - Kodak PolyContrast (exp 1967) treated with 10% potassium nitrate and toned with 10% KRST.

damn thatd delicious

Dwane · May 28, 2009

ntenny said:
Dwane, I like that one a lot! What was the colour like before toning?

-NT

It was a salmon color before it went into the fixer. In the fixer it changed to a light brown color, but the salmon color returned when the print was dry. When I put it into a 10% KRST solution the tone first changed to a slate grey color, but further toning moved the color to the color it now has. I'm glad you like the print

Philippe Grunchec · Jun 15, 2009

Yes, great print! Do you have more?

Dwane · Jun 15, 2009

Philippe - sorry, this is the only one I did. I did this just to try out the process to see if it would work. It was enough for me to know that it does work.

And there is a Paris in France?! I learn something every day from APUG

removed account4 · Jun 15, 2009

threads like this are the best!
thanks!

john

PVia · Jun 16, 2009

After the paper dries in the dark, does it have to be loaded into the contact frame in absolute darkness as well?

Dwane · Jun 16, 2009

PVia said:
After the paper dries in the dark, does it have to be loaded into the contact frame in absolute darkness as well?

I don't know if this is addressed to Martin or myself. I used an OC safelight when soaking the prints in the potassium nitrate, let them dry in total darkness, then used the safelight when I loaded the paper into the contact printing frame. Washed the exposed print in water and fixed with hypo under the same safelight, just as I would do with DOP paper. No problems with fogging.

Rlibersky (please see post #34 in this thread) soaked his paper in potassium iodide and found that his paper was fogged by his safelight when drying because the iodide made the paper sensitive to red light.

Martin Reed · Jun 19, 2009

PVia said:
After the paper dries in the dark, does it have to be loaded into the contact frame in absolute darkness as well?

In the case of the silver nitrate treatment, after drying it was just handled like original POP, subdued room light prior to exposure. If one of these methods can be nailed down as a definitive way of producing a POP, is it really such a big deal that it's not manufactured on a large scale any more?
I expect someone could set up shop post-treating roll paper from one of the manufacturers and packaging it.

POP (Printing out paper)

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