Pondering the (Rolleiflex) TLR Film Path

JWMster · Oct 12, 2023

So after a number of stabs (Bronica, SLX, 6008) at MF, the TLR was the 1st dependable workhorse I'd found. Gave it a CLA on acquiring it, but now that I'm comparing it with newly acquired Pentax 645N I have to wonder that the film path through the camera seems as though it drags the negative mercilessly - the negative side runs across the rollers - towards exposure and then on to the take up reel. Pentax on the other hand together with many of the removable back cameras.... has the film run toward exposure with the backing paper taking the beating. This seems to be a "kinder, gentler" way of doing things.

Much as I've liked the TLR for SQUARE, film path protection is now one of my requirements for a replacement... if there's a need for one. The IF isn't necessarily just a nice thought... but a real wonder whether I really need to go there. The Pentax 645N seems to have a very good balance for covering options without some of problems with "the carry". Nice to run with a NORMAL and PORTRAIT lens. I'm not sure shooting wide is something I'd do in SQUARE. Wide is good for travel and landscape... and I know some folks use wide on portraits, too. Seems like a 501CM or similar might do the job if I go this route but I'm leery of the age, the A12 III back search, etc.. Much as the 6X7 and 6X9 appeal... and they do!!! ...I might be better off leaving the mega size to 4X5.

Thoughts? Recommendations?

Pieter12 · Oct 12, 2023

Although I have many lenses for my 6x6 SLR, I find I use the 80mm normal and a 50mm wide most of the time. I don't shoot many portraits, those I do tend to be environmental with a normal lens. The 50mm doesn't feel "wide," I just don't have to step back to get more of the scene in the viewfinder. Handy when stepping back involves standing in the middle of the street.

BrianShaw · Oct 12, 2023

I’m a bit perplexed about the concern with the Rolleiflex film path. Perhaps more peripheral information in pot 1 than I’m able to process.

Thoughts: the Rollei film path(s) was/were professionally engineered decades ago and served photographic professionals for just as many decades. If there was a design problem…

Recommendations: If your camera is binding then ensure that you are loading it correctly and ensure that the rollers are freely rolling.

And if this is just a random theoretical worry… a martini.

Dan Daniel · Oct 12, 2023

OP, have you been having problems with emulsion scratches? I don't think that I am the only one here who isn't clear if you have a specific problem or if you are wondering how millions of rolls of film have gone over Rolleiflex and other such cameras rollers for close to a hundred years now without a consistent issue of scratching.

Pieter12 · Oct 12, 2023

Eve Arnold, Richard Avedon, David Bailey, Cecil Beaton, Eduoard Boubat, Bill Brandt, Wynn Bullock, Robert Capa, Imogen Cunningham, Robert Doisneau, Harold Feinstein, Vivian Maier, Lee Miller, Helmut Newton, Gordon Parks, Irving Penn, and Sabine Weiss all used Rolleiflexes. I don’t recall hearing anything about them having issues with scratched film or other problems related to the film path.

JWMster · Oct 12, 2023

Thank you for the reply. I've never seen the film others have shot, but my camera doesn't space the frames evenly, and that suggests the path in my camera may be stickier than might be the case with my Pentax 645N... which produces beautiful, regular frames - 16 of them on a roll. Do all Rolleiflex 3.5's do this? Maybe the tension is higher than it should be (needs a lube?) and therefore, this happens and more... it somehow scratches the emulsion. Some can be removed with SDRx in Silverfast, but not all. And really they seem to occur in skies, smooth textured uni-color areas.... just where you don't need that stuff. On the positive side, the balancing "good" about that tension is it makes the images great. And to be clear, they are great. Scratches aside, I love the images and the camera. But love is something that sees and forgives flaws and lives with them. If it's a matter of service....then maybe it's time? Could be that simple.

Again, I've lived through Kodak's 120 defects in recent years... so yes, beloved names... they can and do have issues, and sadly a problem with admitting them. Could be a bad batch of film, too. If I recall, Kodak's problem was backing paper. This was Ilford Delta 400 mostly... and I don't think they've had this, or that this is the same thing. Not sure... but anything's possible. But what do I know? Literally? Nothing.

BrianShaw · Oct 12, 2023

Your Rollei needs an overhaul. Not unusual for a vintage camera. After that you can expect a decade of reliability… maybe more.

4season · Oct 13, 2023

JWMster said:
I have to wonder that the film path through the camera seems as though it drags the negative mercilessly - the negative side runs across the rollers - towards exposure and then on to the take up reel. Pentax on the other hand together with many of the removable back cameras.... has the film run toward exposure with the backing paper taking the beating. This seems to be a "kinder, gentler" way of doing things.

I regard this type of thought process as "rhetorical engineering", in the sense that if the argument is made persuasively, it might seem true. But it ain't necessarily so!

dasBlute · Oct 13, 2023

for a long time, I mis-threaded my rollei, merely running the film over the outside roller, not between the two...
total rookie move, and I got a lot of uneven frames, occasional binding, etc...

summicron1 · Oct 13, 2023

Have you felt the action of the rollers in your camera? They should be smooth as a baby's ass and spin very very freely, absolutely no friction or even rough spots. If you can feel anything all I suppose you can try a teensy bit of lube on the ends where the bearings are, but most likely there are other issues of a nature that crop up with similar age and a service is the thing you need.

Well it be expensive if done right? Of course, silly. But it will be worth every penny.

MarkS · Oct 13, 2023

The Rollei designers and engineers considered your question, and successfully answered it, many decades ago. Might as well worry about the electricity leaking out of the wall sockets.

250swb · Oct 13, 2023

"I've read that the Rollei film path is terrible and the rollers can touch the emulsion, and what then, scratches galore, maybe torn film from catching some rust, or worse fire from the friction, it's not worth the risk! It's probably important to warn people on other forums about this problem so the word goes around quickly, but a shame for all those that end up with useless Rolleiflex's. If only I can remember where I read about this problem the first time...............?"

(from the book - How Myths Originate and How Photographers Are the Most Gullible, $2.50 from Amazon)

Dan Daniel · Oct 13, 2023

JWMster said:
my camera doesn't space the frames evenly... Do all Rolleiflex 3.5's do this? ...it somehow scratches the emulsion....If it's a matter of service....then maybe it's time? Could be that simple.

Uneven frame spacing and scratched emulsion are not a design feature of Rolleiflexes.

Could be that simple? Yes. Needs an overhaul.

Also sounds as you are enjoying the Pentax. Sometimes switching up cameras can be invigorating. Especially if it gives negatives that aren't scratched. Decide if you want to send the Rollei out for an overhaul, and in the meantime keep shooting the Pentax. It might be the better camera for you at this time.

JWMster · Oct 13, 2023

4season said:
I regard this type of thought process as "rhetorical engineering", in the sense that if the argument is made persuasively, it might seem true. But it ain't necessarily so!

That's a fair comment and I've used similar before in that there's a difference between things that make sense, but aren't causal or direct... even if they make sense.

{Moderator deletion of non-photographic, potentially controversial examples}

guangong · Oct 13, 2023

Yes! Camera needs to be serviced. My 2.8F has operated trouble free for me since early 1970s.

ic-racer · Oct 13, 2023

You should get you Rollieflex fixed. They are great cameras.

JWMster · Oct 13, 2023

Looking into it currently. Thanks!

Pioneer · Oct 13, 2023

Harry Fleenor, find him at rolleirepairs.com, cleaned and serviced my Rolleiflex Automat many, many years ago and it is still running wonderfully. They are truly marvelous cameras once you master the backwards view in that viewfinder. I am currently trying to learn the ins and outs of large format photography so I don't use it nearly as much as I should, but it is still as reliable as ever. Good frame spacing and no scratches on my Velvia 100 film.

blee1996 · Oct 13, 2023

A properly serviced Rolleiflex is for life. And I had good experience with both Paul Ebel and our own @Dan Daniel .

Sirius Glass · Oct 13, 2023

Any 6x6 camera will do the job but one should have it checked to see it there are scratches and if so have the camera serviced,

MattKing · Oct 13, 2023

Moderator hat on:
That should be enough discussion about causation in general, vs. specific, photography related causation.
There are lots of other places for discussing that!
Hat is now off.

Pieter12 · Oct 13, 2023

Pioneer said:
Harry Fleenor, find him at rolleirepairs.com, cleaned and serviced my Rolleiflex Automat many, many years ago and it is still running wonderfully. They are truly marvelous cameras once you master the backwards view in that viewfinder. I am currently trying to learn the ins and outs of large format photography so I don't use it nearly as much as I should, but it is still as reliable as ever. Good frame spacing and no scratches on my Velvia 100 film.

Harry has a good reputation, and a long wait time that goes along with it. Same for Key Camera. I'm sure there are many other qualified technicians out there, you just need to do some serious research.

Rolleiflexible · Oct 13, 2023

blee1996 said:
A properly serviced Rolleiflex is for life. And I had good experience with both Paul Ebel and our own @Dan Daniel .

Thanks for the referral to @Dan Daniel -- I have some Rolleis that need attention. Harry Fleenor is great, but he is usually backed up with work.

Pioneer · Oct 13, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Harry has a good reputation, and a long wait time that goes along with it. Same for Key Camera. I'm sure there are many other qualified technicians out there, you just need to do some serious research.

Took awhile, even way back then, but in my case it was worth the wait. Just advising based on my own experience and satisfaction.

But as you say, there are always others that can do the work.

summicron1 · Oct 14, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Harry has a good reputation, and a long wait time that goes along with it. Same for Key Camera. I'm sure there are many other qualified technicians out there, you just need to do some serious research.

Would you believe -- no, seriously, i am not making this up -- there was a time Harry Fleenor had an ad in Shutterbug Ads offering to do a Rollei shutter for $49?

No kidding. Of course there were add-ons -- the tripod socket needs tightening ($20), The film advance is extra, and so on and so forth. ended up costing me a cupla hundred..

But still, $49 for the shutter and he was actually advertising for work. Those were the days.

Pondering the (Rolleiflex) TLR Film Path

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