Polytoner from Kodak

[ann]

This site was posted on pure-silver

http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/chemicals/CIS268.pdf

 

[PeterB]

Thanks Ann. I saw it too the other day on Pure-Silver. I straight away sent and downloaded the pdf to see what polytoner is all about. I can't see myself making some, but at least I learnt what Kodak has on offer toner wise. in fact my searching led me to this informative page on toners by Ryuji http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/toners.html

Hey, if Kodak continue to use the rationale that just because their sales volume was very low (e.g. for the polytoner) that they would publish the proprietry formula, what is stopping them doing this for other chemicals when they eventually ditch their analog pursuits?

regards
Peter

 

[ann]

I have tried those formulas on Ryuji site and in fact they can be found in the recipe section here on Apug.

Unfortanely they do not tone nor split the same way as the Kodak version. Perhaps it is today's papers but they don't.
If you want to see some beautiful split toned prints with this toner (Kodak polytoner)check out Linda Butler's book "Itlay, in the shadow of time"

 

[erikg]

Thanks for the link. Interesting that Kodak still has people around that know or care about such products and the people who use them, and that they still want to help us out.
Ann is right about the other formulas (posted here on apug), they are nice but not the same, and it's not the paper, I've tried them side by side against polytoner and things are different. I'm going to give this Kodak formula a try.
I have seen some Linda Butler prints and they are quite beautiful.

 

[jim appleyard]

Polytoner is one I've never tried, but was looking forward to it. I'm not in a big hurry to start mixing selenium powder due to toxicity and was wondering if this sub version of the Kodak version could be somehow using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner? Being pre-mixed, it should be quite a bit safer. Can it be done?

 

[ann]

the thought process about the other formulas is perhaps the formula for KRST has changed which has brought about it's inability to react as it once did.

Hard to tell for sure, but i have tried the other subsitutes and altho they tone nicely it is not the same. the other formulas do use KRST not the powder.

 

[donbga]

If you want to see some beautiful split toned prints with this toner (Kodak polytoner)check out Linda Butler's book "Itlay, in the shadow of time"

The reason that Linda was able to get the paper to split tone in the fashion that she did for her book was the cadmium content of the paper, which is no longer being made.

Don Bryant

 

[ann]

i have some of that paper, and am planing on trying it with the formulas listed on this site.

I didn't mean to imply that those images came only from the toner.

 

[Ryuji]

Thanks, Ann! I didn't know about this publication! I have too much bourbon in my blood so I'll calculate what it means tomorrow (we all know what the formula for KBT is), or today, rather, depending on your time zone.

Hey, if Kodak continue to use the rationale that just because their sales volume was very low (e.g. for the polytoner) that they would publish the proprietry formula, what is stopping them doing this for other chemicals when they eventually ditch their analog pursuits?

As far as their b&w processing chemicals are concerned, there is little that is unknown and important. I would rather pay and go there to know how they make their b&w paper emulsions, though... even in their small pilot plant.

 

[Ryuji]

The reason that Linda was able to get the paper to split tone in the fashion that she did for her book was the cadmium content of the paper, which is no longer being made.

It's hard to show them by scanning, because scanning loses a lot of the print quality as you all know, but I have good luck with yellowish or orangish highlights and deep purplish black shadows with AGFA MCP and MCC developed in DS-14 and its successor, toned in my selenium-polysulfide toner (improved version that cuts the odor in half and prolongs the tray life). One trick is to use rather strong working solution.

I just uploaded a bunch of unedited pics. Among them,

http://silvergrain.org/main/document.php?id=83

is printed on MCP that way. It's printed on 11x14 stock and scanned pretty straight. With MCP and my scanner, toned b&w prints look more bluish. So add some yellow in your eye when looking at this picture.

Depending on the paper, developer and the toner dilution, the print image increases density by the next day after drying. So get this factored in and print for slightly lighter image, if necessary.

Incidentally, cadmium doping was a common technique used in chloride and chlorobromide emulsions to trim the toe (as well as to reduce fog, increase speed, etc.), the toe which could be rather long without cadmium in an old method of making emulsion. I have tried to use other divalent metal dopants and zinc doping was very useful in making beautiful chlorobromide enlarging emulsions in my hand. BUT I didn't try to get them to split tone...

 

[Ryuji]

So I just did a quick calculation. One liter of this toner concentrate contains 5.7g selenium and 245g liver of sulfur, with carbonate and hydroxide to adjust the pH to the target value. At the 1+24 dilution, one liter of the working solution contains 10g liver of sulfur and 0.23g selenium. This is pretty much what I guessed about Poly Toner before. I've also tried to dissolve more selenium, but it doesn't dissolve very well. What happens is that, when I dilute the concentrate to make working solution, some selenium precipitates out. If I add more sodium sulfide, more selenium will dissolve but with some other problems.

The toner I use is stronger than these values but at a significantly lower pH, taking advantage of the findings of an extensive work performed by the Image Permanence Institute of Rochester Institute of Technology. However, I find that the solution becomes less stable at a lower pH, so I use an organic compound that stabilizes the toner solution, to offset this problem. So it is more rapid in action, less smelly, more stable, with less risk of staining.