Polypan F issues

pentaxuser · Jan 15, 2014

Just a small point which seems to have got lost or has ceased to be of interest( except by me possibly). What is the connection with Ecuador? Seems a strange place to produce film. One poster did ask if this was a joke. So is it?

pentaxuser

pdeeh · Jan 15, 2014

I suspect it is mistaking "Made in EC" (="Made in European Community") for made in .ec (i.e. tld for Ecuador)

StoneNYC · Jan 15, 2014

Xmas said:
How many tanks have you damaged?
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/wittman.html

1st I've not broken any.

2nd, I take serious offense to you referring to me as a nazzi, in fact, I'm going to have to ask the moderators to not only remove these comments, but suspend Xmas's account, what are you thinking? You don't just call someone a nazzi, I'm offended in so many ways I don't even know what to do. You know nothing about me, what's wrong with you?!!

Xmas · Jan 16, 2014

StoneNYC said:
1st I've not broken any.

2nd, I take serious offense to you referring to me as a nazzi, in fact, I'm going to have to ask the moderators to not only remove these comments, but suspend Xmas's account, what are you thinking? You don't just call someone a nazzi, I'm offended in so many ways I don't even know what to do. You know nothing about me, what's wrong with you?!!

Hi Stone

I did not refer to you as a Nazi.
I also suggest you did not read the rest of the thread properly and your unnecessarily suggested action could lead to a Hazchem incident.
The developers we use are not nice to spill in a kitchen or bathroom, even the Quinol in a PQ developer is not nice.
If you are using a Patterson plastic tank the base is fragile when the tank is full of liquid and can split and leak, Ive seen it happen to a 3rd party (who banged one gently) and I have a 2nd hand one with a missing (chipped) bit of base structure. I suggest is important for you and everyone else to treat them as fragile, I don't think that was your suggestion, but I may have misinterpreted you?
The OPs problem seems to be due to a non prehardened emulsion and he appears to have solved it. The films you use are so prehardened you wont see the same problem, stop bath or temperature shock was most likely cause.
I never bang my tanks or prewash but I still always process over a wash hand basin or bath. I do sometimes have problems with fixing between the rebates and the edge of the tank but don't think that is bubbles, as it is along the film, and occurs both top and bottom, and not always out to edge...
I process a lot of of film, typically 40 cassettes per week, more when I use 120 or 220, over some 30 or so years...

Noel

pentaxuser · Jan 16, 2014

pdeeh said:
I suspect it is mistaking "Made in EC" (="Made in European Community") for made in .ec (i.e. tld for Ecuador)

Thanks pdeeh. I hadn't thought of that but it certainly makes sense

pentaxuser

AgX · Jan 16, 2014

I learned that "banging" the Jobo tank too back in the 70s. No idea where I got from, but in hindsight it was common knowledge.
And I don't think one easily could have broken the Jobo 1000 tank.

CatLABS · Jan 16, 2014

StoneNYC said:
One, this "no-pre-soak" is nonsense, always pre-soak your film if you want consistent results.

Actually, there is no real reason to presoak. Most (if not all) modern films do not call for presoak, and in the fairly long dev times, it has almost no meaning, other then being a continuation of some archaic "tradition".

I (and many years and scores of my students and peers) never presoaked, yet were somehow able to get some pretty good results.

The word "nonsense" only suggest a casual dismissal of what others might have fact based knowledge to support, for no good reason.

Agitating gently, and tapping gently (as most tank makers suggest), can help avoid air bobbles, though the manifestation of air bobbles is somewhat different then anything discussed here.

As always, knowledge, and facts are always best.

q_x · Jan 17, 2014

Yes, I think I've solved my issue. Even with acidic fixer it's all OK now. When it runs out, I'll just buy a bag of hypo.

I presoak films mostly not to contaminate developers with dyes and whatnot and to avoid bubbles.

BTW, I've chipped one tank banging, can't remember if it was Polish (PZO or Krokus) or old Jobo tank.

Cheers!

StoneNYC · Jan 17, 2014

CatLABS said:
Actually, there is no real reason to presoak. Most (if not all) modern films do not call for presoak, and in the fairly long dev times, it has almost no meaning, other then being a continuation of some archaic "tradition".

I (and many years and scores of my students and peers) never presoaked, yet were somehow able to get some pretty good results.

The word "nonsense" only suggest a casual dismissal of what others might have fact based knowledge to support, for no good reason.

Agitating gently, and tapping gently (as most tank makers suggest), can help avoid air bobbles, though the manifestation of air bobbles is somewhat different then anything discussed here.

As always, knowledge, and facts are always best.

Well PE says always pre-soak, and he knows more than you hah, or anyone, I take his word over anything.

StoneNYC · Jan 17, 2014

Xmas said:
Hi Stone

I did not refer to you as a Nazi.
I also suggest you did not read the rest of the thread properly and your unnecessarily suggested action could lead to a Hazchem incident.
The developers we use are not nice to spill in a kitchen or bathroom, even the Quinol in a PQ developer is not nice.
If you are using a Patterson plastic tank the base is fragile when the tank is full of liquid and can split and leak, Ive seen it happen to a 3rd party (who banged one gently) and I have a 2nd hand one with a missing (chipped) bit of base structure. I suggest is important for you and everyone else to treat them as fragile, I don't think that was your suggestion, but I may have misinterpreted you?
The OPs problem seems to be due to a non prehardened emulsion and he appears to have solved it. The films you use are so prehardened you wont see the same problem, stop bath or temperature shock was most likely cause.
I never bang my tanks or prewash but I still always process over a wash hand basin or bath. I do sometimes have problems with fixing between the rebates and the edge of the tank but don't think that is bubbles, as it is along the film, and occurs both top and bottom, and not always out to edge...
I process a lot of of film, typically 40 cassettes per week, more when I use 120 or 220, over some 30 or so years...

Noel

Just be more cautious when you link something like that, with no true description, kind of leaves open interpretation.

I only develop about once a week, usually 2 rolls (120 mostly) or one-two "sets" of sheets (up to6 sheets per set). I'm very careful about the kitchen stuff, but I have 3 Paterson tanks and over 3 years I've not had any broken or chopped tanks.

Xmas · Jan 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Well PE says always pre-soak, and he knows more than you hah, or anyone, I take his word over anything.

Indeed PE probably does, but suggest you need to ask the specific question, does he recommend a pre-soak for a non hardened emulsion on PET film, the emulsions are like butterflies wings!

These films normally have specific handling instructions when used professionally, e.g. survelliance or cine after camera processes, e.g. Adox said

"We recommend the use of plain water to stop!"

for the earlier incarnation of CTS 100 PET, note it was really cheap and rather good.

However not withstanding PE - I never have pre-soaked, though most of the time I stand for 30 to 60 mins, so it would not make any detectable difference, though not for unhardened film it gets a short soup.

StoneNYC · Jan 17, 2014

Xmas said:
Indeed PE probably does, but suggest you need to ask the specific question, does he recommend a pre-soak for a non hardened emulsion on PET film, the emulsions are like butterflies wings!

These films normally have specific handling instructions when used professionally, e.g. survelliance or cine after camera processes, e.g. Adox said

"We recommend the use of plain water to stop!"

for the earlier incarnation of CTS 100 PET, note it was really cheap and rather good.

However not withstanding PE - I never have pre-soaked, though most of the time I stand for 30 to 60 mins, so it would not make any detectable difference, though not for unhardened film it gets a short soup.

You have me there, I wasn't thinking about the special base, well played sir

georg16nik · Jan 17, 2014

q_x said:
...I rinse the film for a minute before and after dev with ~12C tap water...

q_x, you mean 12°C, like Celsius...?

q_x · Jan 17, 2014

Quite cold tap water. But it's a part of my past, now I'm keeping everything as close to 20C, as possible.

Xmas · Jan 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
You have me there, I wasn't thinking about the special base, well played sir

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/CHS100_II/index.html

I quoted from the version I films data sheet, inside the box, dont know if this version (II) is prehardened. The version I was excellent film and I always process very conservatively, so I did not get any effects similar to the OP got with the Poly..., it dries flat and is crystal clear for reversal.

PE may still recommend a prebath - without prejudice. The Adox may be cheap in your shop. But it may need close tempering and preferable very weak stop or plain water if it is not pre-hardened. Load it indoors or lose frames 1 and 2 edges to fog given the PET base. YMMV

StoneNYC · Jan 17, 2014

Xmas said:
http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/CHS100_II/index.html

I quoted from the version I films data sheet, inside the box, dont know if this version (II) is prehardened. The version I was excellent film and I always process very conservatively, so I did not get any effects similar to the OP got with the Poly..., it dries flat and is crystal clear for reversal.

PE may still recommend a prebath - without prejudice. The Adox may be cheap in your shop. But it may need close tempering and preferable very weak stop or plain water if it is not pre-hardened. Load it indoors or lose frames 1 and 2 edges to fog given the PET base. YMMV

As I recall, Tech Pan may also have no stop bath in their instructions. I'll have to check.

Xmas · Jan 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
As I recall, Tech Pan may also have no stop bath in their instructions. I'll have to check.

A stop bath is called out and a pre-soak for tray processing, Kodak film is normally prehardened

StoneNYC · Jan 17, 2014

Xmas said:
A stop bath is called out and a pre-soak for tray processing, Kodak film is normally prehardened

All I remember about the instructions is the ridiculous amount of shaking you do, you basically shake it up as if you're trying to make a soda bottle explode it's kind of silly... Lol

Truzi · Jan 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
All I remember about the instructions is the ridiculous amount of shaking you do, you basically shake it up as if you're trying to make a soda bottle explode it's kind of silly... Lol

I know what you mean. It took me a while to figure out how to agitate. When learning how to develop film, directions are typically very explicit on times, temps, and frequency of agitation, but never on how to agitate. My first few attempts were like making a cocktail. I learned the hard way what that does to contrast.

AgX · Jan 18, 2014

AgX said:
I learned that "banging" the Jobo tank too back in the 70s. No idea where I got from, but in hindsight it was common knowledge.
And I don't think one easily could have broken the Jobo 1000 tank.

Truzi said:
It took me a while to figure out how to agitate. When learning how to develop film, directions are typically very explicit on times, temps, and frequency of agitation, but never on how to agitate.

The Jobo instructions for their tanks are clear on agitation:

http://www.jobo.de/web/jobo_service_analog/analog_frei/bedanleitung_pdf/Tanksystem_1500.pdf

I think the instruction from the 70s for the tank 1000 was similar.

pdeeh · Jan 18, 2014

On the issue of pre-soaks, all the comments I've read PE make about the necessity of pre-soak are in the context of colour processing, and as I understand it, mostly to do with tempering the film and tank. I don't recall reading him saying it as being necessary for b&w. But then I haven't read every one of his 22,000+ posts of course

Xmas · Jan 18, 2014

AgX said:
The Jobo instructions for their tanks are clear on agitation:

http://www.jobo.de/web/jobo_service_analog/analog_frei/bedanleitung_pdf/Tanksystem_1500.pdf

I think the instruction from the 70s for the tank 1000 was similar.

I now feel guilty whan I say Ive never pre-washed, what I meant to say was Ive never pre-washed with roll film or 35mm, in a daylight tank.

For Silver Bromides or chloro bromides I always:-

pre, dev, stop, fixa , fixb, rinse, HCA, rinse, all these in trays & drop any keeper in the temper bath to await a flow wash, if you are tray processing pan film you need the prewash for same reason I did the paper (or RC)... If the bath i.e. bath in bath room was not big enough for eight trays the pre and last rinse were in hand wash basin, this limited the size I could print.

When I did Cibachrome prints I used daylight print tanks and no prewash. The daylight tanks were like (Patterson) film tanks except they had a paper holder in place of spiral and centre column.

CatLABS · Jan 18, 2014

AgX said:
The Jobo instructions for their tanks are clear on agitation:

http://www.jobo.de/web/jobo_service_analog/analog_frei/bedanleitung_pdf/Tanksystem_1500.pdf

I think the instruction from the 70s for the tank 1000 was similar.

+1.

Also - for the benefit of Paterson users, patersons instructions for INVERSION processing are quite clear and concise. They are on every box and also available online. They have been pretty much the same since they were written way back when in the 70's...

Truzi · Jan 18, 2014

AgX said:
The Jobo instructions for their tanks are clear on agitation:

http://www.jobo.de/web/jobo_service_analog/analog_frei/bedanleitung_pdf/Tanksystem_1500.pdf

I think the instruction from the 70s for the tank 1000 was similar.

Unfortunately, I only read English. Plus, when starting out, I basically purchased used daylight tanks and did not seek out every bit of knowledge on the web I could find. I understood I needed to invert the tanks, but not how vigorously. On the plus side, after seeing what vigorous inversions did, I can now use it to my advantage - not that I'm good at that, but I'm slowly gaining knowledge of lighting and contrast, and how agitation can figure in.

AgX · Jan 18, 2014

Truzi said:
Unfortunately, I only read English. Plus, when starting out, I basically purchased used daylight tanks and did not seek out every bit of knowledge on the web I could find.

With all respect then you should not be surprised when some mishap occurs.

Polypan F issues

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