• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Point Light Source...The Theory and Application

A long time ago...

A
A long time ago...

  • 0
  • 0
  • 19
Boy and teddy, 1920's.jpg

A
Boy and teddy, 1920's.jpg

  • 2
  • 2
  • 41

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
201,202
Messages
2,820,393
Members
100,582
Latest member
v1photos
Recent bookmarks
0

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
Several have indicated an interest into additional information on a point light source for use in enlarging. There is a relative lack of information available online and since I recently converted my Durst 138S condenser enlarger to a point light source, I will write up a brief theory of light, it's application, and it's effects insofar as photographic enlarging.

Before I begin, let me say that what I am about to state is based upon my education and my experience. It is not designed to be a point of contention for differing viewpoints. It will be factual and factually supported.

To begin, let's recognize a couple of things. The first is that the smaller the source of light in relation to it's illuminated subject, the greater the inherent contrast. When we apply this to the world we observe, we need look no further then the effects of the sun on a clear cloudless day. We observe that inherent brightness ratios are at their highest then. Shadows are sharply defined. Not only are shadows sharply defined but also contrast between different reflective values are at their highest.

However when we compare this to day when we have thin cloud cover , then we observe that the shadows are less well defined. Not only are they less well defined but also the contrast between different reflective value objects less well defined. The reason is that we have converted the relatively small source of light, the sun, into a much larger and diffuse source of light by converting the cloud cover into the source of light. The thin clouds effectively scatter the light rays emanating from the small source, the sun. This could be compared to firing stobes in a bank in studio versus bare bulb lighting.

When we take this still a step further and, rather then a thin cloud cover, we have a heavy cloud cover then the shadows will be totally absent and the contrast of differing reflective values will be at their lowest. The heavy backlit clouds have effectively converted the small light source of the sun into a much, much larger source of light. Again we find that the light rays are very diffuse in this case.

This effect is what we encounter when comparing differing light sources in photographic enlarging. The cold light head, color and variable contrast diffusion light sources all serve to create a large light source in relation to the illuminated object. Which in this case are the individual density regions of the camera negative. Not only are these light rays in these types of light sources diffuse (scattered) but they are also not collimated (directed along a defined axis). Thus we experience a loss of sharpness between different density regions of the camera negative, we also experience a lack of information on the print. We need look no further then the absence of spotting when comparing a diffusion light source enlarger to a condenser enlarger. The same dust and defects may exist on the negative in both cases. However because the light is not collimated and diffuse we have effectively "washed" away the defect by the scattering of light. We must recognize, it would seem, that we can not "wash" away the effects of dust and defects without suffering an accompanying loss of local contrast and sharp detail.

The next step is to look at a condenser enlarger. Condenser enlargers collimate (direct) and focus the light from a frosted bulb at a given point. In a well designed condenser system, this light is focused at the nodal point of the enlarging lens. Not all condenser systems have well designed optical systems. Additionally, however, I think that it is important to recognize that we still have a relatively large light source in a condenser enlarger. The frosted Thorn lamp in my Durst 138S was approximately 4 inches in diameter. Also, because it is encapsulated in a frosted envelope, it is diffuse at it's origin. Thus while some of the loss of sharpness and local contrast experienced in a diffuse light source are solved by the optical system of the condensers they are not totally solved because the light is still diffuse at it's source. It may be focused but not well collimated.

When we look further at this matter, and create a much smaller light source. We reach the point where we have light that is sharp, collimated, and focused. The effects are, so much are possible, the sharpest detail and greatest local contrast available within a conventionally available photographic enlarging system.

At this point I want to interject that I disagree with those who contend that the same prints can be gained from all differing light sources. That simply is not true. In this context, it is important to note that while one can utilize diffusion as an addition of a point light source, should that be desired for whatever reason, it is impossible to transform a diffuse light source into a sharply collimated and focused light source. To contend that would be to say that we would suddenly bring the sun beneath the clouds. I think that we can agree that just will not happen.

With this in mind, we begin to seek out lamps that have small filaments that are capable of incredibly bright light housed in a relatively small clear quartz envelope. These lamps typically operate at or near 500 C. Thus cooling of the lamp enclosure by induction cooling is normally warranted.

The change from a large diffuse light source to a small well defined light source does carry certain design requirements in addition to the heat encountered in lamp operation. The other problem is that the light must be even across the projected area. This calls for designs that are not encountered in the use of diffuse light sources.

Reflectors are used in the design that I developed and installed. The reflector design must be clearly defined. It's dimensions must be carefully calculated and adhered to. The fact that light does have defined and predictable characteristics does help in this regard. In building a point light source as in all aspects of lighting the law that the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence holds true.

I hope that this has answered those who have had questions.
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,735
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
Don Thanks for this post

I am considering converting one of my 8x10 enlargers to a point light source.( or for that matter making the existing head modual.)
A project I am considering would benifit from the added sharpness of this type of light.
My concern would be the strengh of light vs condeser as I have based most of my printing experience between 8sec and 30 secs.
Is the point light source comparable in this regard?
Are you offering your services on conversions of Durst Enlargers?
I know Jens has a modified head for the 184 but I am not sure of the style of lighting it produces.
 

rhphoto

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
348
Location
Vermont
Format
Medium Format
This is great Donald. Could you talk some more about the results of enlarging with point source? I mean the kind of "look" one would expect from prints made with this light. Also any well known photographers who use this method. I know Brett Weston did from about the 1970s on. I think he had a Durst 138 also. And how would one go about acquiring a point source head for their enlarger? You mention Durst -- does (or did) Beseler or Omega make them? Thanks!
 
OP
OP

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
Bob Carnie said:
Don Thanks for this post

I am considering converting one of my 8x10 enlargers to a point light source.( or for that matter making the existing head modual.)
A project I am considering would benifit from the added sharpness of this type of light.
My concern would be the strengh of light vs condeser as I have based most of my printing experience between 8sec and 30 secs.
Is the point light source comparable in this regard?
Are you offering your services on conversions of Durst Enlargers?
I know Jens has a modified head for the 184 but I am not sure of the style of lighting it produces.

Bob,

I typically find that my printing times are in the 20 seconds range on a 3X enlargement. This is with 3 stops of ND in the light path and at F22-F32. I designed this lamp conversion to make very large prints with reasonable printing times should one desire.

We would need to talk about conversions. I may be interested in working something out for you. My primary focus however is photography.
 

avandesande

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
1,349
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Format
Med Format Digital
The 'darkroom 2' book (the one with Cole Weston in it) also has an article by Hans Namuth describing point source enlarging. He goes into great detail about actually doing the enlargement. He doesn't discuss equipment at all though. I am itching to try it.
 
OP
OP

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
avandesande said:
Will a traditional condensor lens set work for this? I have a 23c and can focus the condensor...


I would have to say that I would think it should be possible considering that I have uncoated condensers in my enlarger.
 

avandesande

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
1,349
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Format
Med Format Digital
Illumination technology has changed considerably in the last 30 years, high intensity led or xenon arc would be much more suitable for this than a filament bulb.
 
OP
OP

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
rhphoto said:
This is great Donald. Could you talk some more about the results of enlarging with point source? I mean the kind of "look" one would expect from prints made with this light. Also any well known photographers who use this method. I know Brett Weston did from about the 1970s on. I think he had a Durst 138 also. And how would one go about acquiring a point source head for their enlarger? You mention Durst -- does (or did) Beseler or Omega make them? Thanks!


Robert,

The closest that I can come to describing the prints is to say that I make 11X14 prints from 4X5 negatives that rival any 11 X14 contact print that I have ever seen. I have not had the opportunity to print larger at this time.

Actually, it was Brett Weston's work that inspired me to do this conversion. I don't know that this is true, but I think it would be interesting to determine if Brett Weston's switch from shooting and contact printing 11X14 negatives to shooting medium format did not coincide with his switch to a point light source.

I believe that other photographers used them too. I am not sure, but I wonder if Don Worth did not use one...I am judging by his prints.

I am not aware that Omega or Bessler ever made a point light source. Durst primarily offered the point light source to the medical community for very precise photographs in research from what I understand.

That being said, it may well be that a given enlarger could be converted. It depends on the original design among other factors.

Thanks for you enquiry.
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,735
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
Well Don

Thats one helluva powerful enlarger . I definately would be interested, let me get through the APUG conference and I will contact you directly re a conversion for my 184

thanks
Bob
 
OP
OP

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
jdef said:
Hi Donald.

I think any discussion of the effect of a point light source for enlarging must include a description of the Callier Effect. As presented, your analogy is fundamentally flawed, because the negative itself acts like the thin layer of clouds in your analogy, to scatter the once-collimated light before it reaches the printing paper. The fact that the light is not scattered evenly across all of the densities in the negative distorts the contrast. Due to the Callier Effect, a point light source will print a given negative with greater contrast than a diffused source would, but sharpness is not affected. You can prove this to yourself by printing a resolution test neg with both sources, at a common contrast. Once the contrast is equalized between sources, there's no difference in resolution, which shows that what you're perceiving as increased sharpness is actually just increased contrast.

Jay


Jay,

I respectfully disagree. Because I have printed the same negative using my Saunders 4550 VCCE, my Durst with the Opal Thorn lamp, and my Durst with the point light source. Resolution is definitely improved with the point light source.

Not only is resolution improved in and of itself but also local contrast is improved. One can not have improved local contrast without improved sharpness or resolution.
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,735
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
Comparing prints made on diffusion and condensor , I will always go to the condensor print for sharpness when tones/contrast are matched from the same negative.
I would think to see the same jump in apparent sharpness using point light source as Don suggests.
 
OP
OP

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
Bob Carnie said:
Comparing prints made on diffusion and condensor , I will always go to the condensor print for sharpness when tones/contrast are matched from the same negative.
I would think to see the same jump in apparent sharpness using point light source as Don suggests.

Bob,

If you will send me your mailing address via private message, I will send you a print the next time that I get into the darkroom. It will probably be a week or so since Lee Carmichael is coming into town this week and we will be mostly photographing.
 

avandesande

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
1,349
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Format
Med Format Digital
I wouldn't mind seeing a print either. Brett Weston was almost as much a minimalist as his father, it is hard to imagine that he would go through so much hassle if there was nothing to it.
 

Paul Howell

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
10,023
Location
Scottsdale Az
Format
Multi Format
Last year I converted an old Russian 35 mm enlarger to point source just to print my older (mid 60s and early 70s) 35 mm negatives as I wanted to emulate the harsher look I wanted in those days, which I could not seem to get with a standard condenser enlarger and modern papers. Compared to prints made on my Omega using the same Wollensak lens the prints made with the point source do look sharper. I had not thought about using point source for MF or 4X5. Rather than mess with my D3 I might look for an old 4X5 Federal.
 

rhphoto

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
348
Location
Vermont
Format
Medium Format
avandesande said:
I wouldn't mind seeing a print either. Brett Weston was almost as much a minimalist as his father, it is hard to imagine that he would go through so much hassle if there was nothing to it.
I think there were a couple of reasons Brett went to this method. First, I believe it was in his desire to acheive large format results from meticulous use of medium format cameras. As he aged, he found it harder and harder to get out that old 8x10 (much less the 11x14). So he went with what must be the best way to get those results: slow films (Agfapan 25, Panatomic X), high resolution developers (Pyro, DK-50) and the point source enlarger light. Second, as his style became more and more abstract, his subject matter got increasingly contrasty. And the point source certainly helped in that regard. All those leaves in Hawaii were shot under pretty low contrast light. Thus, pushing the developing, printing on high contrast papers, and using the sharp light all magnified the effect.
As for Jay's contention that what we are seeing as increased sharpness in point source enlargements is actually just increased contrast, I'd like to see the science there -- a thourough test of actual resolution. But if, in the end, the visual experience of the point source enlargement is a perception of increased sharpness, then maybe the factual resolution data is moot?
 

Claire Senft

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
3,239
Location
Milwaukee, W
Format
35mm
I have an enlarger similar to Donalad's, a Durst S-45. I have a cold light unit, a full set of uncoated condensers and a Durst Varipoint light source. The point light source is being used with 35mm negatives. There is a marked difference in appearence between prints made by the three light sources. Each light source where the same subject/lighting is being used and aiming at the same contrast level paper for the print will require a different film speed and developing time. A given negative may be printed with all three sources if the contrast of the paper is capable sufficient change.

A couple of points need to be made:
A high quality enlarging lens at it critical aperture is capable pf higher resolution than what one can expect to put on a negative. A first class 50mm should be capable of 250+LPM.

Any of the three lighting systems are capable of projecting all the resolutoin one can put on a negative.

With the point light source the extremely fine detail and edge sharpness is .ly rendered with didtincly greater clarity. Particularly if the point light source is used with an oil immersion carrier to reduce the refraction of light from a glass carrier. This change is easily seen.

When I talk abour sharpness it is only in terms of a difference that I can see. If I look at two prints and one looks sharper than the other then as far as I am concerned it is sharper.

Beseler did at one time make a point light source for the 4x5 series enlarger.
In the book The print by A Adam's one can see it sitting on a shelf. These are hard to find. Condit made a head modification for Omega to allow a PLS and I believe that they also provided a very expensive tricked out Saunders with a PLS also. Photographic systems in Santa Fe New Mexico used to have some PLS available used.

Donald has a system using reflector. The varipoint that I uses a small bulb w/o a reflector and a 4mm filament and a transformer to reduce the voltage for controlling bulb brightness.

When using a PLS the size of the bulb filament, the lens focal length, the size of the enlargement, condensers being used all make a determination on how far the bulb needs to be from the lens for maximum efficiency and even coverage. In the Durst S45/L138/L139 enlargers on can move the lens higher/lower from the lens, as well left/right and foward/backward.

If one wants to modify an enlarger to use a PLS one would have to make certain that the bulb is the correct distance from the condenser/lens combination and print size and that it is centerted on that axis.


Jdef, just for a point of information: A Adam's did not care to use a condensers enlarger. He preferred a difussion system particularly given the thick emulsion films he was using. Adams also stated thet he believed ther may be merit to using one in 35mm because of the higher apparent sharpness.
 

avandesande

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
1,349
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Format
Med Format Digital
Jay, I am usually pretty unsatisfied with negatives that print on anything harder than grade 3. Do you think that they would look better printed with a point source? I did a bunch of stuff at white sands (abstracts) that were just too flat.
 
OP
OP

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
Quote Jdef: "On the other hand, if there is some compelling science to suggest otherwise, I haven't seen it, and would appreciate any pointers on finding it. "

Hi Jay,

Like you, I took a very tongue in cheek approach to this matter of condensers and let alone a point light source. After all Ansel had said that they were only capable of delivering "soot and chalk" prints.

To address your claims of no increase in sharpness, I would ask if you would to explain why there is less spotting with diffuse light sources? If the negative has the same dust and defects why is this more apparent with a condenser and even more so with a point light source? The dust represents density on the negative. So why does the diffusion light source not show it?

The answer, when I took time to evaluate it for myself, first by reasoning and second by actual experience is that the diffuse light source does not show negative density detail nearly as well as a condenser light source and certainly even less so then a condensor point light source.

Call this what you will...but to me this translates to one thing. That is an actual loss of resolution with a diffusion light source. I can come up with no other explanation for myself. This is not the result of greater apparent sharpness...it is the result of greater actual sharpness.

Now I began this thread with a caveat...that is that I did not want to get into a pissing match with you or anyone else for that matter about different light sources. My intent at the outset remains constant. To give those who were interested the theory and the factual basis behind light characteristics and how they impact enlarging photographic negatives. Nothing more is intended or warranted.

Good luck to you in your photography.
 

avandesande

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
1,349
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Format
Med Format Digital
Jay, I just got an extra back for my RB so I will be able to experiment... unfortunatly freestyle doesn't have it in rollfilm. Maybe my switch to efke25 will be enough.
I didn't like efke 50 at all, to me it seems like efke100 with a different dye package.

It was actually cloudy here yesterday, but it is 70 and sunny today. Hopefully winter is on the way out, though it is dry as a bone here. Our only precip was 1/2inch of snow since october.
 

pelerin

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2004
Messages
343
Format
Multi Format
Donald Miller said:
<snip>
I am not aware that Omega or Bessler ever made a point light source. Durst primarily offered the point light source to the medical community for very precise photographs in research from what I understand.

That being said, it may well be that a given enlarger could be converted. It depends on the original design among other factors.

Thanks for you enquiry.

Hey,
Both Omega and and Beseler sold point source setups for their 4x5 enlargers. I have seen one of the Beseler ones. The Omega model "DM point source lamphouse" I have only seen in catalogs. Omega also offered VC systems and high power xenon heads at one point. I can scan an ancient catelog pic if anyone cares.
Celac.
 

Curt

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
4,618
Location
Pacific Nort
Format
Multi Format
This is why I was pushing so hard for ISO 25 films in 120 and 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 inch size. JandC has neither in stock. One can only hope. I have tried the ISO 50 films and they just don't compare with the ISO 25 films.
 

Kirk Keyes

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Messages
3,234
Location
Portland, OR
Format
4x5 Format
Donald Miller said:
I would ask if you would to explain why there is less spotting with diffuse light sources? If the negative has the same dust and defects why is this more apparent with a condenser and even more so with a point light source? The dust represents density on the negative. So why does the diffusion light source not show it?

That's any easy one - it's because the dust and your film are 3 dimensional and the dust sits above or below the emulsion.

For dust between the film and the light source:
- For the diffusion enlarger, light is approaching the emulsion from all directions, not in a single, collimated beam as in the case of the point source. Because of the diffuse light, there is not as much of a shadow cast with the diffusion enlarger. It's like standing outside on a very heave overcast day - there are no shadows.
- For the point source, the light is collimated and a distinct shadow is projected on the the emulsion. Just like on a sunny day with a crystal clear sky - very sharp shadows. This accentuates the appearance of dust.

For dust between the film and the projection lens:
- The light that makes it to the printing paper has traveled through the lens, and that light is travelling in a straight path. If there is dust on the bottom surface of the film, any light that is directed towards the lens will be blocked by the dust. Doesn't matter what kind of light source here - this will leave an image of the dust on the paper.

So, again, it is because the diffusion enlarger presents light to the film from nearly all directions (ideally) above the film that helps minimize the appearance of dust.

This affect has absolutely nothing to do with resolution or sharpness, or even appearant resolution or sharpness.

AS for the initial post, it looks like the same neg was printed with all three illumination sources - this is not a fair test. The neg used for the test needs to be developed so that is it suitable to the light source, i.e. diffusion requires a higher CI than a point source does.

Read up on densitometer design and you will see that densitometer with a doubly-diffuse design (both the light source and the light sensor are "diffuse reading") will give lower density readings than a densitometer with a doubly-specular design (where both the light source and the detector are far enough away from the film that they are essentially points). It all relates back to the Callier Effect as Jay pointed out earlier.

Kirk -www.keyesphoto.com
 
OP
OP

Donald Miller

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
6,230
Format
Large Format
Kirk,

Have you printed with a point light source or is your voluminous dissertation one that is based in theory only?

I will take my prints produced this way to any diffusion source made. By the way I own what is generally recognized as being one of the best current diffusion enlargers.

I will repeat what I said at the outset and once again prior to your post. This is not intended to be a discussion of various light sources. It is designed as the discussion of one light source and how it differs from the other more commonly available ones. I have no interest arguing with you. I don't understand why you choose to interject your views on a matter that was not directed to you. Do you often have difficulty in determining who a question was directed toward?

Besides I know what my eyes tell me.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom