Point and Shoot LF ?

dancqu · Mar 19, 2005

Do any have experience using those no movements, no bellows,
fixed lens, LF P & S cameras. I've see them advertised and I've
seen some nice work done with a European model with
fixed 47mm. Dan

David H. Bebbington · Mar 19, 2005

I have a 4x5" Gran View, shown here:
http://granview.com/
This is fitted with a 90 mm Super Angulon. I think for this type of camera to work at all, you need to stick to 4x5" or smaller and work with wide-angle lenses where you can use hyperfocal-distance focusing and get deep focus without movements. Cameras like this are portable, quick to use and more practical in extreme situations, such as high wind. For LF photographers not accustomed to the idea of hand-holding, they can offer a useful additional approach (think, for example, of photographing upward-looking views of city skyscrapers, not to mention aerial photography if you get the chance). In general, however, their use is rather limited - I bought mine from a friend who reviews equipment for a living, I probably would not have considered buying one for the full new price of $1000.

Dave Parker · Mar 19, 2005

You might take a look at this thread over on the Graflex website, where they were talking about the "Ringside Graphic" that Christies is getting ready to auction off in a couple of months, the Ringsides were quite popular for photographing prize fights in the past.

http://www.graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?topic=3300&forum=1&8

Dave

noseoil · Mar 20, 2005

4X5 P&S

This is a wood camera I made using an old Polaroid 110A Pathfinder lens (Rodenstock). It is a coated lens which is very sharp, 127mm. My friend uses one on a 5X7 she has and it covers pretty well, except for a tiny bit of the corners.

I've cheated, because mine has a focusing capability. Borrowed the view finder components and focusing scale so I can guess at distences. It works very well, basically a step up from the pinhole concept, but cheap and with a shutter.

There are plenty of lenses which cover different formats, find one which works and build a box to accept a film holder, then you're ready to go. An 11X14 box camera would be interesting, but a bit bulky to carry around and work with. tim

lee · Mar 20, 2005

doesnt Bostick and Sullivan sell a camera called the HOBO a point and shoot 8x10

lee\c

Jeremy · Mar 20, 2005

noseoil said:
This is a wood camera I made using an old Polaroid 110A Pathfinder lens (Rodenstock). It is a coated lens which is very sharp, 127mm. My friend uses one on a 5X7 she has and it covers pretty well, except for a tiny bit of the corners.

I've cheated, because mine has a focusing capability. Borrowed the view finder components and focusing scale so I can guess at distences. It works very well, basically a step up from the pinhole concept, but cheap and with a shutter.

There are plenty of lenses which cover different formats, find one which works and build a box to accept a film holder, then you're ready to go. An 11X14 box camera would be interesting, but a bit bulky to carry around and work with. tim

Tim,

Any chance you have a set of schematics for this camera you can share? I also wanted to try some point-and-shoot 4x5 or 5x7 and this looks cheaper and lighter than a crown graphic.

John Kasaian · Mar 20, 2005

Speed or Crown Graphic using the sports finder and a 127 Ektar is about as point and shoot as LF gets. You could also try a Gowland Aerial with helical focusing rather than fixed focus at infinity. I have an 8x10 Aerial focused at infinity and I think for terrestial work the option to be able to focus would be worthwhile on many shots. My 2 cents YMMV

waynecrider · Mar 20, 2005

I shot a Super Graphic with 90mm lens for awhile using the hyperfocal method and sportsfinder. I could go on a short walk and go thru 20 sheets easily in a couple of hours exploring angles of one subject, or single shots of other different subject matter. It was like playing to me. The problem is the cost and work afterwards to develop all those shots. Personally I think a slower stingy approach is a wiser decision, as you tend to make every picture count more. If you can hold your individual shots to 1 each using a 4x5 handheld I think that it's a fun thing to try, but having 10 holders loaded and ready to go to me is like having a bag of chochlate malted balls and only allowing yourself one every 20 minutes. It's hard to do. Try going out with 2 film holders. See what you get.

JLMoore3 · Mar 20, 2005

P&S Crown Graphic

Jeremy Moore said:
Tim,
Any chance you have a set of schematics for this camera you can share? I also wanted to try some point-and-shoot 4x5 or 5x7 and this looks cheaper and lighter than a crown graphic.

Cousin Jeremy,

Do you have a Crown Graphic that you want to use as a point-and-shoot? If not, consider what I've done with one that I have... Since the top-rangefinder housing was cracked, the strap & half of the Graflok back was missing I stripped the Crown of all of the un-necessary parts (Graflok back, rangefinder parts, & side-mount for flash gun).

I then put on one of the older spring backs, which are lighter than the Graflok, and cut a piece of plastic the same size as the pop-up viewing shade (this serves as a ground glass protector). I also reversed the front standard so that it has forward tilt (no weight savings there, but helpful for field work). I added a plastic round bubble level & an aluminum drawer handle to the top.

Total weight without lens- 4 pounds exactly! If you keep your lens kit down to some of the lighter lenses, it's quite backpack-able.

As far as using this as a P&S... You can set up a really light & tiny Ektar 127mm (to give a wee bit of extra angle) and mark off the hyperfocal distance on the bed. Add a Grafmatic 6-shooter & you've got all you need!

If you want to convert an older Crown let me know- I can give some advice on parts & techniques.

Troy Ammons · Mar 20, 2005

I have been pondering a 4x5 P+S for quite a while and actually I have considered hacking my Sinar 4x5 and create a handle to hold the two frame supports together. Combine that with a helical focus and you are set. The Sinar is very modular so dropping the bottom support or mixing and matching parts is really easy and takes about 10 seconds. Creating a new base support with a new handle will take some machining.

This one is pretty neat...

http://job.webstar.nl/newcampg.html

Also there are these things.....

Dead Link Removed

Crown and Speed graphics were press cameras and supposedly hand held a lot. There were quite a few 4x5 press cameras made.

Even with that said I question the real benifit of a 4x5 P+S camera.

Movements are what LF is all about, but I think I will still give it a try.

Also unless you use the very best super sharp lens you could suffer diminishing returns as far as resolution, in which case you would probably be better off with a Mamiya 7 and roll film, auto exposure and RF focus.

chuck94022 · Mar 20, 2005

Check out the Bostick and Sullivan Hobo. It appears to be good quality, and cheap too. It sells new for less than $600 (sans lens). I don't own one, but it does seem pretty cool for certain kinds of images.

http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/Hobo/welcome.htm

-chuck

JLMoore3 · Mar 20, 2005

Troy Ammons said:
I have been pondering a 4x5 P+S for quite a while ...

<<snipped>>

Even with that said I question the real benifit of a 4x5 P+S camera.

Movements are what LF is all about, but I think I will still give it a try.

Also unless you use the very best super sharp lens you could suffer diminishing returns as far as resolution, in which case you would probably be better off with a Mamiya 7 and roll film, auto exposure and RF focus.

Troy- It's not about movements or resolutions or even benefits... It's about the challenge of it! 4x5 handheld is a breeze... It's not like I'm lunatic enough to try to handhold a 5x7! (Just kidding Ole!)

dancqu · Mar 20, 2005

noseoil said:
I've cheated, because mine has a focusing capability. Borrowed
the view finder components and focusing scale so I can guess
at distences.

I would'nt call that cheating.

Years ago I played around with a Graflex D, reflex 4x5 or 5x7. I've
a precision wood working and a machinest background so it's easy
for me to entertain thoughts of building a LF camera. I think it
would be a reflex.

I'm in the woods where the trees and cliffs go up and down.
What one or two movements would be most usefull? I think tilt, front
and back. If I'm correct, I can then shot up and down, maintaining
verticals, and also improve depth of field. Is that correct? It's
been many years since I sold my monorail. Dan

Troy Ammons · Mar 20, 2005

JLMoore,

I bet its a challenge, and I guess sooner or later I will have to try it myself, but gees its got to be easier to just carry a tripod although lighter is better IMO at least for hiking.

I cant imagine .........
juggle the camera, load a film holder,
juggle the camera, cock the lens,
juggle the camera, pull the slide,
a little more juggling, frame and finally shoot

all the while shuffling a meter, and film holders around while I have my smallish 4x5 P+S intermittently stuck between my knees between juggling sessions.

Oh and i always have to double check everything so for me its even worse.

Sounds awfully cumbersome.

I guess you could put a strap on the beast and hang it around your neck and go see the chiropractor. My RB67 almost send me there shooting handheld several times.

Why not skip all the light weight stuff and go for a P+S 8x10 !!

Yikes. A tripod is sounding easier by the minute.

Ole · Mar 21, 2005

Troy Ammons said:
I cant imagine .........
juggle the camera, load a film holder,
juggle the camera, cock the lens,
juggle the camera, pull the slide,
a little more juggling, frame and finally shoot

all the while shuffling a meter, and film holders around while I have my smallish 4x5 P+S intermittently stuck between my knees between juggling sessions.
...

Why not skip all the light weight stuff and go for a P+S 8x10 !!
...

I can imagine - and a 5x7" Technika is neither "smallish" nor "light".

What can I say? It can be done. It's a lot easier if you sit down once in a while, I haven't tried doing the whole juggle act standing up.

David H. Bebbington · Mar 21, 2005

Troy Ammons said:
I cant imagine .........
juggle the camera, load a film holder,
juggle the camera, cock the lens,
juggle the camera, pull the slide,
a little more juggling, frame and finally shoot

all the while shuffling a meter, and film holders around while I have my smallish 4x5 P+S intermittently stuck between my knees between juggling sessions.

Times change! For the first half of the 20th century, the vast majority of press pictures were taken with handheld 4x5"/9x12 cm cameras, which were designed to facilitate this. The 4x5" spring back (i.e. non-Graflok) is specifically designed to be operated with one hand while the photographer's other hand holds the camera. The viewing hood has clips on the back to hold a darkslide sheath. Photographers readily guessed distances and exposures (press pictures weren't enlarged very much, and old-style film had more exposure latitude). In most cases, press photographers not only loaded a slide for each picture but also a flashbulb - after use, they made no attempt to dispose of these in a eco-friendly way but simply ejected them onto the ground. This may seem strange to a generation which thinks of 4x5" cameras as being slow and ponderous and needing 30 minutes' deep contemplation of the GG for each shot, but it can be done, and I have done it!

Troy Ammons · Mar 21, 2005

All interesting. I have had a couple of press cameras, but never really considered shooting them handheld. If I was shooting handheld I always grabbed a MF camera. I will have to try it sometime.

removed account4 · Mar 21, 2005

dan - -

while i use my speed graphic as a p/s sometime, i would rather use a 4x5 box camera i picked up on FEE-bay. i think it cost me something like $35 ... it has milk-glass for a viewer, you stick a 4x5 holder in the back - set the shutter on "I" and you are golden.
even thought the optics are pretty 1890s ( meniscus lens ) it takes pretty good pictures.
if you were going to make one today, it would not be very hard ...

David H. Bebbington · Mar 21, 2005

Speaking of LF point and shoot, does any APUGGER have a giant Graflex SLR (5 x 7" or 6 1/2 x 8 1/2")? I always wanted to use one of these before I die - the closest I ever came was a 6 1/2 x 8 1/2" with the whole shutter ripped out.

Jeremy · Mar 21, 2005

David H. Bebbington said:
Speaking of LF point and shoot, does any APUGGER have a giant Graflex SLR (5 x 7" or 6 1/2 x 8 1/2")? I always wanted to use one of these before I die - the closest I ever came was a 6 1/2 x 8 1/2" with the whole shutter ripped out.

I believe David Goldfarb has a 5x7 Graflex. He's over in New York which is just a plane flight away from the UK. Maybe you could woo him with dinner and see if he would accompany you out in the city for some shooting

ronlamarsh · Mar 21, 2005

Handheld 4x5

I've just started using my Linhof Tech III in this mode. I have a 180mm lens on it and use the bed scale for focussing. Its not nearly as akward as one might think and with fast film(hp5 in rodinal) you can shoot f22@1/60 on a sunny day. I have gotten away with f32 @ 1/60. For close shots the DOF gets tricky but with a little experience you can do pretty well. Also removing the GG back and using a grafmatic ehlps immensly. My wire sports finder is also calibrated for 6x9: one day I'll get that 6x9 back and a 101mm lens. As to the point and shoot ultra wide angles I've never tried one but can say I am not adept at composing ultra wide or even med wide angle shots I just don't see that way. I find a 180mm just right for my mind.

AndrewH · Mar 21, 2005

handheld

Ron:

I think that it is a challenge to shoot handheld 4x5. I have found shutter speed and depth of field to be bigger issues than I am used to shooting 35mm or with my TLR. Two example of what can be done you can find in the gallery here (I think on the second page by now). This is rangefinder focusing and trying to shoot rather wide open. Considering I have only taken about 12 shots, I think that I have learned a lot. I would wholeheartedly recommend the Polaroid 110B route. While the camera can be unwieldy at times, I haven't found the whole sheet film holder a problem. I walk around with the camera open and ready and the sheet film holder loaded in because I shoot with the rangefinder. I simply pull out the dark slide, shoot, replace, and usually flip the holder over for the next shot. It isn't as easy as 35mm or MF, but then a nailed shot you really get a wonderfully big negative.

Cheers,

AMH

noseoil · Mar 21, 2005

I went with the 127mm lens from the 110 Polaroid, because I found the focal length was about the maximum useable when depth of field and shutter speed are considered. A 90mm would be very easy to work with, because the hyper-focal distance is very short.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 21, 2005

Troy Ammons said:
I cant imagine .........
juggle the camera, load a film holder,
juggle the camera, cock the lens,
juggle the camera, pull the slide,
a little more juggling, frame and finally shoot

all the while shuffling a meter, and film holders around while I have my smallish 4x5 P+S intermittently stuck between my knees between juggling sessions.

It's not really that hard. I like to use Grafmatic holders with my Tech V, so the holder stays on the back for six frames at a time, and I can focus with the rangefinder and frame with the viewfinder. It's usually not necessary to meter every shot unless you are in lighting conditions that are constantly changing, but in any case this is no different from using any manually adjusted camera. I have a neckstrap for the camera in case I need two hands for something else, and my little Digisix meter (the readout is the "Digi" part, and even then you still need to use a calculator dial) goes in my pocket attached to a watch fob, so it only really requires one hand.

It all becomes natural once you are used to it.

Originally Posted by David H. Bebbington
Speaking of LF point and shoot, does any APUGGER have a giant Graflex SLR (5 x 7" or 6 1/2 x 8 1/2")? I always wanted to use one of these before I die - the closest I ever came was a 6 1/2 x 8 1/2" with the whole shutter ripped out.

You're welcome to try out the 5x7" Graflex any time you're in New York, as long as you promise not to keel over while you're using it. You'll at least want to see how the pictures turn out!

Aggie · Mar 21, 2005

My trials and travales of trying to get a hand held 4x5 are becoming legendary. There is one route that no one has dared to mention, I think for fear of the ensuing eruption. That is the polariod conversion to 4x5. Littman in NY is the most prominent in the field. There are many smaller ones out of the USA who profess a great camera. I ordered one of those out of country versions. The rest of tht stroy is in short a nightmare. Well it does have a happy ending. Littman contacted me, and out of good will has offered (in thre process of making mine now) to exchange the DOA version for one of his. If that doesn't say enough about customer relations and someone willing to stand behind their product I don't know. Littman didn't have to do this, it was not his worry. I can say that I intend to use that new camera in a thorough workout. I wanted it as a travel camera to take flying around the world. I have 7 grafmatic backs ready to go, and this would be a lighter easier to manuver kit than my bigger brother version of a 4x5. Blansky has a Littman also. He could tell you more now about the camera.

Point and Shoot LF ?

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