PMK Pyro Developer Help

I am new to PMK Pyro. I am planning using PMK to develop Tri-X and HP5+, both exposed & developed at ISO 400. Is there recommended recipe for those films at 20 degree C to start off?

Are you developing in trays or rotary?

I have used PMK Pyro for over 25 years now....

Pre Soak 2min
dump
Dev 1 - 1 litre - 7 min
dump into container for final stain
Dev 2 - 1 litre -7min
dump
Water Stop - 30 seconds
dump
Fix - five minutes
dump
Stain with old dev - 2min
dump
Wash as normal- photo flow and hang to dry as normal.

mix the dev just before developing
sometimes I will increase the dilution strength
I basically have a Normal time - 14 min - Push time 16 min - and a Drop time - 12 min
keep in mind that I am using Rotary Jobo processor.
sometimes I agitate the first 15 seconds off machine
splitting the developers is important in my darkroom
Works fantastic for all films , roll and sheet
Gordon Hutching's book is a tremendous value and recommended reading

You will get many that say its not a great developer- and you should switch to Pyrocat HD
You also will get many that will suggest Stand Development.

I have found it good with Jobo and my printing needs.

Bob

I am using Paterson Tank for development.

Bob: I am lost at Dev. 1 & Dev. 2? Can you expand?

Unfortunately, The Book of Pyro is not available at Formulary, Freestyle, etc...

Jay Yap said:

I am new to PMK Pyro. I am planning using PMK to develop Tri-X and HP5+, both exposed & developed at ISO 400. Is there recommended recipe for those films at 20 degree C to start off?

Click to expand...

Well Jay Yap this question will fullfilling a discussion for years to real experts ..
But to make shure first : Do you beginning to try PKM in general and are you asking for develope times with a comercial PKM like those from photographers formulary and do you need tips and advices in general.
Or do you have a couple of raw chemicals and ask about a smart formulation ?

with regards

I split the development into two distinct times, so as to not oxidize the developer..Learnt this the hard way in the beginning days... 2 litres sounds like a lot but PMK is the least expensive developer I use by a long shot.

Jay Yap said:

I am using Paterson Tank for development.

Bob: I am lost at Dev. 1 & Dev. 2? Can you expand?

Unfortunately, The Book of Pyro is not available at Formulary, Freestyle, etc...

Click to expand...

Ok I see the Book of Pyro is indeed much needfull with general and special information you first need.
But from my point of view Steve Anchell has also designed a couple of methods to handle PKM in a quite good, some say
"exellent way".
Just try the link at : Dead Link Removed

(The Darkroom Cookbook Third Edition)

with regards

trendland - I am looking for help in general using Formulary's PMK Kit (liquid). Thank for rephrasing my question and indeed, it is the help I need;

trendland said:

Do you beginning to try PKM in general and are you asking for develope times with a comercial PKM like those from photographers formulary and do you need tips and advices in general.

Click to expand...

Bob: Thank for the follow-up

Jay Yap said:

trendland - I am looking for help in general using Formulary's PMK Kit (liquid). Thank for rephrasing my question and indeed, it is the help I need;


Bob: Thank for the follow-up

Click to expand...

Well that is no problem at all - if you use the liquit kit (I never try it sorry it seams to be a bit to expendive to me)

You just have to handle it like described.
Somtimes describtions are a case of many doubts the longer you have it in use.
And this is still the time to make own decitions on temperature,delution,times
a.s.o.
But from the beginning photographers formularys advices should be quite ok ?
I hope so ....
If you have doubts just check times given on sites like : digitaltruth.com
Some don't like this site because of many
translation failures - I don't care so much aboud.
If I have doupts with a new developer at
12'30" for example I sometimes have a look in such sides.
If there is marked 14'00" it is ok to me.
Therefore it must be indeed somewere
over 10 min.
The time I use first is allway my personal decision.
In this example I would choice 13'15"
a little more recomanded.
But the real workflow comes from own ecperience - so I did it allways.

Just I got a short look : Hp5 should have 11'00" in the first developer but what is to Trix (also ISO 400) it may have absolute different times but it mostly should be in the near.
Have a look with google and

Bon Chance

I forgot agitation time : As a general rule
15" should wirk fine.
And if you are experienced a bit from first
(hopefully brilliant results)
Sandy King has a very good homepage with general information.
Don't remember right now if he is the same who worked with Steve Anchell together in the 70th / 80th but it may be.

with regards

Thank everyone for the sharing. I will experiment with the information. Thanks ..

You won't need to worry about oxidization of the developer if you are using a regular tank. Constant agitation is what causes problems, and that is what Bob is doing with the JOBO. Splitting the developer is a needless complication for you.

You don't need to do anything different with PMK, just develop like you normally do, only with gloves on. Try to avoid getting it on your skin.

I used to use PMK for quite a few years until I started using Pyrocat-P. I am thinking about going back to PMK though. Sometimes I look at old prints and wonder.... PMK was supposed to be better for printing on graded paper, and Pyrocat was supposed to be better for doing prints on VC paper as well as alternative processes if you wanted to use the neg for both. I think PMK prints better highlights on VC paper looking back over many years of prints.

Hope that helps.

I have always been happy with PMK negatives, and looking back I am glad I used and still use this developer.

Jay Yap said:

I am new to PMK Pyro. I am planning using PMK to develop Tri-X and HP5+, both exposed & developed at ISO 400. Is there recommended recipe for those films at 20 degree C to start off?

Click to expand...

I've used it for years and I use it at 26.6° C or 80°F with Ilford FP4. I think 20° C might be too low for Pyro PMK. Please use pyro developer with great care. I've heard it's toxic.r There are rumors that Ed Weston got Parkinson's disease from using pyro. I don't know if it's true or not.

Bob Carnie said:

I have used PMK Pyro for over 25 years now....

Pre Soak 2min
dump
Dev 1 - 1 litre - 7 min
dump into container for final stain
Dev 2 - 1 litre -7min
dump
Water Stop - 30 seconds
dump
Fix - five minutes
dump
Stain with old dev - 2min
dump
Wash as normal- photo flow and hang to dry as normal.

mix the dev just before developing
sometimes I will increase the dilution strength
I basically have a Normal time - 14 min - Push time 16 min - and a Drop time - 12 min
keep in mind that I am using Rotary Jobo processor.
sometimes I agitate the first 15 seconds off machine
splitting the developers is important in my darkroom
Works fantastic for all films , roll and sheet
Gordon Hutching's book is a tremendous value and recommended reading

You will get many that say its not a great developer- and you should switch to Pyrocat HD
You also will get many that will suggest Stand Development.

I have found it good with Jobo and my printing needs.

Bob

Click to expand...

Bob, why do you still save the spent developer for final stain? This only gives over all stain, and doesn't really give any advantages when printing. Even Gordon Hutchings claims to have discontinued the practice as there is no need for it. I've been using PMK for several years, mainly for rotary processing my LF negatives, which requires only 8 oz dilution per run of four 4x5's or two 5x7's, It is by far the most economical developer I've ever used.

I've been using PMK for 20+ years now and find it a wonderful developer. Here are my experiences and comments in no particular order:

First, as mentioned above, The main developing agent in PMK, pyrogallol, is toxic and is easily absorbed through the skin. Use nitrile gloves when using this developer. Rinse any skin contact immediately and clean up spills promptly and thoroughly. If handled properly, PMK is very safe to use.

I tray develop 320Tri-X and TMY with continuous agitation. My times for "normal" (Zone System "N") are 9 minutes and 13 minutes respectively. Of course, you'll have to test/refine you personal development times yourself; no one can do that for you.

PMK needs good initial agitation and is not suitable for most reduced agitation schemes. With a tank, I'd agitate for the first 30 seconds non-stop and then a few inversions every 30 or 60 seconds thereafter. That said, I've found I can reduce agitation frequency for the second half of development, which still develops quite evenly, but promotes edge effects (one of the reasons I like this developer). I develop up to 8 sheets at a time in trays (usually six) and agitate once through the stack every 30 seconds for the first half of development. I reduce the frequency to once through the stack every 60 seconds after that. You can adapt this to tank processing and see if it helps.

Note that Bob Carnie is using rotary processing. The continuous sloshing of rotary processors oxidizes PMK rapidly which weakens it significantly. That's why he changes developer halfway through development. If you are tank processing, you won't need to do this. Do mix developer just before you use it; after mixing you have about 20 minutes, or a bit more, to get your film developed.

When mixing, be sure not to contaminate Solution A. Specifically, don't get any (even a mini-drop) of Solution B in Solution A or you'll destroy its keeping properties and it will go bad much faster than usual. FWIW, I have dedicated syringes for Solution A and Solution B. These are excellent for measuring out the small amounts needed and easy to clean. Your local pharmacy can supply you with some; you don't need the needles. Solution A only gets touched by one syringe that touches nothing else. I add Solution A to the water first, rinse the syringe in the graduate (plunger in-and-out once) and then stow or clean it and recap the Solution A bottle before adding Solution B.

Gorden Hutchens and "The Book of Pyro" originally recommended returning the film to the spent developer after fixing and rinsing to promote stain formation. This has been found to only increase base stain, not the proportional image stain that is so desirable, and is therefore no longer recommended. I haven't used the developer after-bath for years and my negs print just fine.

If you buy the liquid concentrates from Photographer's Formulary, you can just use them. But if you mix your solution from the dry kit, you need to be super careful when mixing to ensure that you don't inhale any of the powder. Mix outside or under a vent hood if you can and wear a mask or respirator. When mixing Solution A, I make sure I carefully cut open the chemical pouches and then submerge the pouch opening in the water a bit when pouring the powder into the water. This prevents any airborne dust. The caked powder around the opening of the pouch can be dissolved easily after the rest of the powder is in solution by simply rinsing. For Solution B you need very pure distilled water. Don't use tap water or even filtered drinking water or you'll end up with a lot of the metaborate precipitating out and weakening the solution.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Rick A said:

Bob, why do you still save the spent developer for final stain? This only gives over all stain, and doesn't really give any advantages when printing. Even Gordon Hutchings claims to have discontinued the practice as there is no need for it. I've been using PMK for several years, mainly for rotary processing my LF negatives, which requires only 8 oz dilution per run of four 4x5's or two 5x7's, It is by far the most economical developer I've ever used.

Click to expand...

I have never seen the need to change... old dog new tricks.. I faintly remember trying PMK without stain and I faintly remember more gritty looking grain pattern on my prints.

Thanks everyone for the help. I managed to developed first HP5+ roll in PMK Pyro. Attached is the result and love it. Thanks.

Hi,

let me add one more question here:
I developed my first roll in PMK yesterday and the results look very good, especially in the highlights.
It was a TX 120 @200 ASA in a small tank, 530 mL developer, Bergger PMK liquid (Gorden Hutchens formula), 1 + 2 + 100 mix.
So far, so good.
The data sheet says in 530 mL only one roll of 120 should be developed.
Is it possible to develope two 120s at one time in a small tank like I do using other developers?
Could a modified mix like 1.5 + 2 + 100 or 2 + 2 + 100 work?

Best
Jens

Jens Hallfeldt said:

Hi,

let me add one more question here:........
Is it possible to develope two 120s at one time in a small tank like I do using other developers?
Could a modified mix like 1.5 + 2 + 100 or 2 + 2 + 100 work?

Best
Jens

Click to expand...

I don't know about making it less dilute, but my impression after using PMK in an inversion tank successfully for some years is that it's the last developer I'd attempt to stretch. I strongly recommend using a generous quantity. I found that a lot of agitation was not necessary ( a reasonable amount at first, then every 2 or 3 minutes thereafter). This in the context of generous exposure and I like a not very contrasty negative. In fact I tried to get a bit more contrast once by developing for some minutes more than my standard 13min at 20degC and it made no discernible difference, presumably because the developer was already oxidized.

john_s said:

I don't know about making it less dilute, but my impression after using PMK in an inversion tank successfully for some years is that it's the last developer I'd attempt to stretch. I strongly recommend using a generous quantity. I found that a lot of agitation was not necessary ( a reasonable amount at first, then every 2 or 3 minutes thereafter). This in the context of generous exposure and I like a not very contrasty negative. In fact I tried to get a bit more contrast once by developing for some minutes more than my standard 13min at 20degC and it made no discernible difference, presumably because the developer was already oxidized.

Click to expand...

Hi John,

well, maybe it is a better idea just to take two tanks then...

I took 12 min for the TriX 120 at 21°C, so about the same as your standard time.
A less contrasty negative is what my enlarger likes, too ;-)
Let's see how PanF will look like.

Best wishes and thanks
Jens

I see no need for two tanks for mere hand inversion, which doesn't cause excessive oxidation like aggressive rotary processing. Just use the solution volume specified by the tank, which will probably be 500ml per roll of 120 film. Depending on your pattern of agitation, you'll need something around 12 or 13 min for normal development of HP5 @ 68F. But this needs to be tested and personalized. Tri-X similarly, And DON'T dilute the PMK beyond the recommended ratio.

DREW WILEY said:

I see no need for two tanks for mere hand inversion, which doesn't cause excessive oxidation like aggressive rotary processing. Just use the solution volume specified by the tank, which will probably be 500ml per roll of 120 film. Depending on your pattern of agitation, you'll need something around 12 or 13 min for normal development of HP5 @ 68F. But this needs to be tested and personalized. Tri-X similarly, And DON'T dilute the PMK beyond the recommended ratio.

Click to expand...

Hi Drew,

no, I never wanted to dilute PMK more.
I just wanted to develope two 120 films simultaniously.
So the idea to put two films in one tank (the 530 mL are fine) and use a stronger solution to compensate.
Anyway, to put these two films in one tank each seems to be a better idea...

HP5? I developed a HP5plus 120 @ 13 min (21°C) this evening, btw, this film seems to give more "pyro-effect" then TX 120. About agitation: First 15 sec continously, then once every 15 sec the next 3 min, then once every 30 sec. I did a 3 min pre-soak.

I'm glad to have found this developer. A master of highlights.

Best
Jens

I use Jobo hand inversion tanks for roll film (never for sheet film, which I do in trays). These are similar to Patterson tanks. I'm kinda nitpicky, so prefer to do only one roll at a time to allow the quickest fill and drain times, and reduce the risk of streaks as much as possible. But two-reel taller tanks are obviously available, and use double the solution amount as the smaller versions, probably 1 liter for a two-reel Patterson tank just as in Jobo, I'd imagine. I only shoot HP5 in 8X10, though I've experimented with it in smaller formats. And I'm not much a Tri-X user, though once in awhile want its grittiness for a particular subject, so keep a few rolls of 120 on hand. I mainly use T-Max films, FP4, ACROS etc - finer-grained longer-scale films. My strategy with HP5 is unusual, but takes into account its "watercolor" grain effect in PMK, where at a certain magnification level (around 3X), you get lovely tonal smoothness combined with very crisp edge effect - almost an etched look. I accentuate this by overexposing and overdeveloping the HP5 sheets (not the usual advice!), and then reining back the highlights using an unsharp mask. I have also concocted a couple of pyro tweaks specifically for HP5, but ordinarily use PMK for all my general shooting work, excluding special lab film applications like developing masks etc. Nowadays I use a different developer for TMax 100 to improve its acutance, but still use PMK for TMY400 since it has excellent edge effect to begin with. I suspect that photojournalist-style shooters really like HP5 for very different reasons than me as a large-format user.