Plus-x 35mm will be discontinued.

NB23 · Nov 4, 2011

Roger Cole said:
Kodak providing recommendations leading to thin negatives? I always thought they were intended to create negatives for solar eclipse viewing.

Actually they've always been spot on - for the specified c.i. which was optimized for printing with diffusion enlargers. For those of us using condenser enlargers, a reduction in time is generally needed - in my experience anyway.

HC110 B 3.5 minutes for Plus x and Tri-X, regardless if you rate it at 400 or 800? This well known Kodak joke is old by now.

MaximusM3 · Nov 4, 2011

NB23 said:
HC110 B 3.5 minutes for Plus x and Tri-X, regardless if you rate it at 400 or 800? This well known Kodak joke is old by now.

yeah, but you didn't know that the 3.5 min was for a rubber tank that you were supposed to violently throw against a wall for the duration, didn't you? That was one of Kodak's most well kept secrets.

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 4, 2011

NB23 said:
Dumping free film on the market helps to boost sales for sure

What does that mean?

BrianShaw · Nov 4, 2011

Thomas Bertilsson said:
What does that mean?

Good question. I wondered too. Seems like a snarky comment that implies either (a) giving samples will lead to desire/dpendence and mroe sales, or (b) giving samples takes away from potential sales.

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 4, 2011

Michael R 1974 said:
I guess that's what they really meant all along by "vigourous" agitation. No wonder my times are always longer than Kodak's. Mystery solved!

Sounds like a really good workout. Now where's my padded room again?

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 4, 2011

BrianShaw said:
Good question. I wondered too. Seems like a snarky comment that implies either (a) giving samples will lead to desire/dpendence and mroe sales, or (b) giving samples takes away from potential sales.

Confused the heck out of me. Whether or not they gave film away for free, the comment Mr Brierly of Harman/Ilford made was that SALES was up 8%. That number does not include free samples.

Roger Cole · Nov 4, 2011

NB23 said:
HC110 B 3.5 minutes for Plus x and Tri-X, regardless if you rate it at 400 or 800? This well known Kodak joke is old by now.

Ok, I never used HC-110 so I didn't know about that one. With D76 their recommendations seemed spot on for diffusion enlarger printing. Seemed pretty much the case with Xtol too, and now with T-Max and T-Max RS.

MaximusM3 · Nov 4, 2011

Michael R 1974 said:
I guess that's what they really meant all along by "vigourous" agitation. No wonder my times are always longer than Kodak's. Mystery solved!

There you have it, Michael, now you know

BTW...not ignoring your last PM...haven't had power for a week at home and been scrambling a bit. Finally came back today!

Roger Cole · Nov 4, 2011

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Confused the heck out of me. Whether or not they gave film away for free, the comment Mr Brierly of Harman/Ilford made was that SALES was up 8%. That number does not include free samples.

Comment was probably a reference to the 2 for 1 HP5 sale. Heck, even I bought some and I've a) mostly quit 35mm black and white, and b) am, or was, a die hard Tri-X and Plus-X user in 35mm when I do shoot it.

But if that's sales in money it has a couple of components, one of which of course is unit price. Ilford films are relatively expensive, but not expensive as all that and there are alternatives so if people are paying the price, they must deem the product worth it. If it's in total rolls, I wonder if just this 2:1 HP5+ in 35mm deal would be anywhere near enough to account for such an increase. I doubt it.

MaximusM3 · Nov 4, 2011

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Sounds like a really good workout. Now where's my padded room again?

Sure is, T...but you don't need the padded room if you use their patented HC1100 rubber tank.

Roger Cole · Nov 4, 2011

NB23 said:
Why do people say that ilford are doing ok? Just parroting around?

As far as I'm concerned, their HP5 2-for-1 sale showed how much in trouble they can be.
And if kodak goes away, just watch Ilford's prices double. It's going to get ugly.

I've heard this speculation before but I seriously doubt it.

First, there is other competition. The European Efke, Foma and Adox films may have (reported - I haven't tried them yet but I have two rolls of 120 Foma to get around to developing) QC problems and delicate emulsions etc. but they ARE available and you CAN use them. If the price spread is wide enough, people will. Secondly, film is not something anyone MUST have. It's not like food or (for many of us in the US anyway) gasoline that we absolutely, positively can't live without and will have to just pay the price regardless. If it's too expensive people will give up photography and/or go digital depending on their inclinations.

Ilford is already premium priced film (and paper even more so) in today's market. I seriously doubt there's much room for increase beyond whatever the silver market imposes. If Kodak folds and Ilford holds the line on prices they could benefit handsomely. Raise them too much and they'll forsake the potential benefit and then some.

2F/2F · Nov 4, 2011

The Kodak times for Plus-X and Tri-X in HC-110 dilution B are very, very wrong. They are times that should work well for dilution A, not B. Try 6 to 7 minutes in HC-110 dilution B instead of the published times. I don't know if this is due to a misprint, due to a mistake in testing, or due to something else, but Kodak has not fixed it for years, which I find ridiculous.

NB23 · Nov 4, 2011

Thomas Bertilsson said:
What does that mean?

It only means that I purchased 200 rolls from them this year, which is 200 more then last year.
If it wasn't for their special offer (buy one, get one free), I'm not sure they'd have my business at all in 2011.

Ken Nadvornick · Nov 4, 2011

NB23 said:
Why do people say that ilford are doing ok? Just parroting around?

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Over at filmwasters.com Leon Taylor interviewed Steven Brierly of Harmann/Ilford, and in the interview Mr Brierly states they have had an increase in sales this year, contrary to the market trend. I remember a figure of 8%.

NB23 said:
Dumping free film on the market helps to boost sales for sure

Thomas Bertilsson said:
What does that mean?

NB23 said:
It only means that I purchased 200 rolls from them this year, which is 200 more then last year.
If it wasn't for their special offer (buy one, get one free), I'm not sure they'd have my business at all in 2011.

So... Ilford wasn't dumping free film on the market. You purchased 200 rolls of it at half-price during one of Ilford's occassional promotions. Which then helped contribute to that 8% sales increase mentioned by Mr. Steven Brierly of Harman/Ilford. Which then is a valid indicator that Ilford might indeed be doing OK...

Do I have that right?

And the relevant point you are trying to make would be...?

Ken

Mackinaw · Nov 4, 2011

Mr. Brierly also stated that sales of Ilford's 120 B&W film have shown a healthy increase this year, which he attributed to the Holga crowd.

And, if I remember what Simon Galley mentioned earlier his year, Iflord/Harmon is profitable.

Jim B.

MaximusM3 · Nov 4, 2011

Mackinaw said:
Mr. Brierly also stated that sales of Ilford's 120 B&W film have shown a healthy increase this year, which he attributed to the Holga crowd.

And, if I remember what Simon Galley mentioned earlier his year, Iflord/Harmon is profitable.

Jim B.

Yep...and if they weren't, I doubt they'd be putting out a pinhole camera kit which so far has shown great demand. I know I'll be buying one.

robtmwall · Nov 4, 2011

I'm glad you mentioned Medalist. I used the stuff for years, and loved the results when using Edwal Platinum developer with the F surface paper dried matte. Fantastic midtones that were pearly gray. I've not seen any Medalist around for at least 20-25 years.

MattKing · Nov 4, 2011

If you have participated in the last few rounds of the Postcard Exchange and drew my name, you will have received a postcard printed on Kodak Polycontrast paper. The negatives were shot on Plus-X and developed in HC-110 (although I used dilution E).

The HC110 and Plus-X data sheets are in error, I agree.

And I am still sad.

BetterSense · Nov 4, 2011

It always sucks to lose a film, but there are replacements for Plus-X available, such as FP4 or TMX or Acros. Its nothing like losing polaroid or anything.

NB23 · Nov 4, 2011

Ken Nadvornick said:
So... Ilford wasn't dumping free film on the market. You purchased 200 rolls of it at half-price during one of Ilford's occassional promotions. Which then helped contribute to that 8% sales increase mentioned by Mr. Steven Brierly of Harman/Ilford. Which then is a valid indicator that Ilford might indeed be doing OK...

Do I have that right?

And the relevant point you are trying to make would be...?

Ken

Absolutely not.
This really only shows that they produced too much for the market to bear. In other words, they probably over-estimated the demand for their product which would quickly turn their profits into catastrophe if the wouldn't have dumped a big portion of their production.

But enough of this nonsense exchange with folks who absolutely want to be right about Ilford. As far as economy is concerned, dumping is never positive.

brianmquinn · Nov 5, 2011

Its called a sale or a promotion. Companies do it all the time to get you using their products. People here complain that Kodak did not promote Plus-x enough.

If all Ilford wanted to do was to get rid of excess stock they would have sold it to someone for silver recovery and not given it away for free.

warden · Nov 5, 2011

brianmquinn said:
Its called a sale or a promotion. Companies do it all the time to get you using their products. People here complain that Kodak did not promote Plus-x enough.

Correct. Ilford's promotion made HP5 competitive with Tri-X and I jumped on it. Now that I have tried it I would buy it again. It's a good idea to have promotions like this to grab some market share.

wblynch · Nov 5, 2011

The way things are going Ilford won't have to do any promotions. Just wait and all the market share will come to them by default.

2F/2F · Nov 5, 2011

wblynch said:
The way things are going Ilford won't have to do any promotions. Just wait and all the market share will come to them by default.

And hopefully the patents for T-Max too.

Simon R Galley · Nov 7, 2011

Dear All,

A few facts to go with the speculation :

Yes, as Steven Brierley has said our film sales are up in 2011, we put this down to maintaining the range, all films and all formats and no deletions:

We never 'dump' or 'over produce' we make film every month, as much as we need.

We have ALWAYS run promotions, all over the world, these add value to our products, its called marketing and promotion, we have done it for years and we will continue to do it, on film and paper products.

Our market share for monochrome paper overtook KODAK's in the 90's long before they withdrew from the paper market.

HARMAN technology is focussed on monochrome photographic products, we are profitable and we remain profitable, whilst we are a private limited company our full accounts are always ( for a fee ) available from companies house in the UK.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Plus-x 35mm will be discontinued.

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