Plumbing

1. Hot water inlet hose
2. Cold water inlet hose (in use for washing machine)
3. Waste outlet hose for washing machine.

I've finally settled into my new home in Cambridge, UK. Got my internet connection and found an excellent room for a darkroom including permission from the other half!

I need some help with plumbing, so if anyone can help that would be great. The above diagram shows the plumbing under the sink in the kitchen.

The darkroom is an an adjacent room to the left about 3-4 metres away.

I wasn't planning to buy an expensive sink so wondered what plumbing options I have with this set up?

I intend to use a cheap Paterson print washer:


Is this possible? Or would I need to get a plumber in to install a tap which will run off the hot water outlet hose? (fig 1)

Thanks.

Gary, It might be very easy for you to plumb another sink a few feet away using this drain standpipe. Mine is the same. I have a T on top of the standpipe that the laundry sink connects to. The same standpipe is used for both. Sometimes I get some venting from one sink to the other, but this is of no consequence. Just a little gurgling from time to time. You can do the same with the copper water pipes and have a fine, wet darkroom. If you aren't too good at plumbing or sweating pipes, a Plumber could do it in a very short time.

Bill

The best approach would be to have a plumber run permanent supply and drain lines to the darkroom ($$).

But, I would agree with Bill to try and drain your darkroom sink through the same trap shown. I would substitute a double wye for the single wye that your laundry drains into. For the supply lines, you could install a tee fitting in both the hot and cold inlets—unscrew the shut-offs, install the tee, re-install the shut-off on one side of the tee, then install a new shut-off on the other side. Then, since it is such a short distance, run flex supply lines to your darkroom sink.

If you wish to be entirely in line with local building codes, you may need to see what the venting requirements are in Belfast. Here (New England) the authorities tend to want a vent pipe for every 6 feet of horizontal run (or something like that.) It may be easier and MUCH less expensive to quietly run a line to the current waste line yourself than engage a plumber, who will need to follow official requirements for waste lines, no matter what the waste.

Of course I am not suggesting that you should ignore the law...

I don't know if these are available in the UK, but I found that when you are pushing the limits of distance of the sink from the vent stack, you can add a Studor vent. This is a small vent that attaches to a tee placed in the drain just beyond the added sink.

Bob

Lopaka said:

I don't know if these are available in the UK, but I found that when you are pushing the limits of distance of the sink from the vent stack, you can add a Studor vent. This is a small vent that attaches to a tee placed in the drain just beyond the added sink.

Bob

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That's correct. I did the same on my sink in my dark room. My house drain is 16' away ,so after the pipe went out the dark room wall I installed a "Y" connector with about 3' of pipe straight up and glued vent ( vent has a spring to keep pipe closed when not in use so sewage gases would not escape ,when water runs vacuum opens the vent and lets water drain into the main drain)on top. No problem venting my drain at all.

Greg

It doesn’t matter what type of print washer you intend to use, they all need a flow and waste. As has been mentioned, swap the branch fitting for a cross, or cut another swept tee into the vertical pipe at the back, and install a new waste pipe from that to your darkroom. Visit your local DIY stores and look at the fittings available. Be aware that there are two types of waste pipe in use here in the UK; push fit and solvent weld. They are not interchangeable, you need the 40mm size for a sink. The length of run you mention is not excessive, but remember that the waste needs to be installed with a fall (slope) from the sink to the drain. You will need a sink of some sort. Check eBay for darkroom sinks, IMO the plastic ones are better than the fibreglass type, or check the price of basic sink/base at DIY centre. Get a quote or two from plumbers, it may be cheaper to get a professional in than redecorate after the water damage.
Hot & cold water supplies will require you to cut into the copper pipes, which is awkward under the existing sink unit. You can then adapt to push-fit 15mm plastic pipe to run to your outlets. This is dearer to buy than copper, but easier to install.

Dave Miller said:

. You can then adapt to push-fit 15mm plastic pipe to run to your outlets. This is dearer to buy than copper, but easier to install.

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I'm not sure that this is the case now. When we had our new kitchen fitted, the kitchen fitter was telling me how the plastic pipe is now cheaper than copper as copper prices have gone up. Something to do with demand from China and other far east economies I think.

I had a demonstration on how to fit the push fit stuff. It looks very easy and quick. Although I'd still recommend using a plumber. Especially for the work under the sink.

Mark Pope said:

I'm not sure that this is the case now. When we had our new kitchen fitted, the kitchen fitter was telling me how the plastic pipe is now cheaper than copper as copper prices have gone up. Something to do with demand from China and other far east economies I think.

I had a demonstration on how to fit the push fit stuff. It looks very easy and quick. Although I'd still recommend using a plumber. Especially for the work under the sink.

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You are quite right Mark, I had forgotten the recent shift in metal prices. The push fit pipework is easy to install, although it needs more fixings for support, it is also essential to use the correct cutting tool otherwise it is too easy to ruin the seals when assembling it.

I'm gearing myself up to replacing all the copper water pipe in my house with plastic as the copper is starting to go. Had two pinhole leaks in the last year or so and looking at the deposits in the pieces I cut out, I'm worried for the rest of it!

In this case I'd be inclined to put a u-bend at the darkroom sink end and run the waste pipe to a tee joint below the u-bend shown in the pic (which is more or less what I did in my darkroom).

I only took cold water to my darkroom and heat that with a 3kw instant water heater. That works fairly well but it is not easy to maintain the temperature at a fixed level as I bought an economically priced (i.e. cheap) one without a thermostat so the faster the flow, the cooler the water... Fit isolation valves in any water lines you tee off of.

Make sure to earth bond any metal taps etc at the darkroom end back to the consumer unit and fit RCD breakers. If you do not understand that sentence, get an electrician in to do any electrics .

Have fun, Bob.

Gary -

You mentioned that the darkroom space was "adjacent" to this room, 3-4 meters away, but you didn't specifically say that the darkroom was behind the wall we see in the picture. One of the challenges may be in running the pipes from the sink area of the darkroom to this point to connect into the existing plumbing. That doesn't mean an insurmountable problem - just one more challenge to complicate things. Projects are never as simple as they first seem - - -

My inclination would be to view this as a DIY project rather than hiring a plumber. Based on what I see in the picture, the challenges will include tapping into the soldered copper hot and cold supply lines. That's not difficult, but if you've never tried soldering copper pipes, I suggest asking a friend to help/supervise. Frankly, my inclination would be to solder in a copper tap and nipple, and immediately transition to whatever form of plastic is readily available at your home center - that will make the job much easier.

It doesn't seem to me that the waste line will be much of a challenge at all. You can either unscrew the reducer fitting that the washing machine drains into, and replace it with what we refer to as a "Y-fitting" in the US (perhaps this is what Dave calls a "swept T", or else you can put a "y" in the washing machine drain itself to provide a spot to attach the drain line from the darkroom. Since that is all plastic, the work would be fairly simple. Again, if you haven't done it before, ask around to see if any of your friends are willing to help. I think I would be inclined to put a "check valve" in the darkroom drain line to prevent a problem the darkroom if there is a backup in the waste system.

Bob, slightly of topic, but copper tube should last a very long time and does under normal use. About 5 to 10 years ago, after the demise of the communist bloc, a large quantity of copper tube was imported from eastern Europe that ultimately proved to be contaminated with iron particles. Over time these rust away, and give rise to pinhole leaks, maybe that’s the cause of your problem.:confused: If so it should only be necessary to replace any tube installed around that time; which could still amount to all of it.

Dave Miller said:

Bob, slightly of topic, but copper tube should last a very long time and does under normal use. About 5 to 10 years ago, after the demise of the communist bloc, a large quantity of copper tube was imported from eastern Europe that ultimately proved to be contaminated with iron particles. Over time these rust away, and give rise to pinhole leaks, maybe that’s the cause of your problem.:confused: If so it should only be necessary to replace any tube installed around that time; which could still amount to all of it.

Click to expand...

Mine is 30+ years old... I've read up on the causes and basically, no one knows why it happens, but it tends to be worse in certain localities suggesting it is the water supply that is the main culprit. Also may be related to poor earth continuity along the pipe: small eddy currents are set up as the hard water flows through the pipes causing calcium salts to come out around imperfections in the pipe. Also worse in acidic water conditions (or was it alkaline?)... Lots of contributory factors. Easier to just replace the pipework with plastic and be done with it. The central heating is not effected thank gawd, only the cold water supply.

Cheers, Bob.

A very cheap way to get a large darkroom sink is a laundry sink. Here in Canada you can buy a 24" x 24" fibre Glass laundry sink for about $50. A set of washerless faucets can be had for $35. You can also get them double wide (two 24 x 24 sinks) for not much more. I am sure you could make one side into print washer.

Thanks for the input. After a few hours in B&Q, I've almost decided what I need. Decided to go for a small kitchen sink in the darkroom. A long washing machine hot water inlet hose will provide easy access to water which I can control from the boiler. I've almost figured how to dispose of the waste as long as I can find a long 25mm diameter waste pipe.

All this can be done without messing around with the original plumbing! It seems very easy to install but the drilling through the wall scares the hell out of me, so I've called in the original plumbers for the apartment who know the location of the pipes behind the wall.